Can anyone recognise the uniform / regiment that the men in the attached are from

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, PB BUSH said:

Excellent discussion, I am learning a lot from your expert opinions

I also thought the words above ASC said West Lancs, I am glad someone concurs.

My own expertise is in Architecture and building, and around the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century we the British generally used square ceramic tiles and the French generally used oblong. Look behind the men, just a thought!

I’m keeping an open mind about West Lancashire, but I don’t think it’s France.  There was little billeting of soldiers in French suburban areas of the type seemingly shown here, except in some rear areas, and then mostly for staff officers working in headquarters.  Contingents of men along the lines of those shown in the OP photo tended to be accommodated in barns and outbuildings with rudimentary facilities sufficient for the numbers likely to be found in field units.

Edited 28 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[The Inspector]

Hi All,

Looking at the censuses  and transcriptions there are different spellings of the surname, Lough, Taugh ,Tough.  There has not been any mention of Ann(e) Ashcroft, Frank's mother, having been previously married to a Robert Rockliffe (1870, Ormskirk, 8b,919) He died in 1876. She married James Tough 29th Dec, 1880.

1891 census Frank Tough is 3 months old at 121 Tower Green.

Frank could have used any of the above names.

Regards Barry

Edited 28 February , 2022 by The Inspector

[TEW]

The original photo looks like it should have better definition through a loupe and without that glare.

Or a higher-res zoomed in crop?

TEW

[PB BUSH]

Slightly better photo, must be France the suns shinning!

From the scan and zoom shot it looks to me like West Lancs

However, the scan and zoom shot of the cap badge it doesn't appear to have a long tail on the bottom of the star like the image of an ASC Cap badge that I have attached.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Yes, I agree with West Lancs ASC, and that is a blemish on the photo.

Definitely an ASC badge. The long tail you're seeing is the clip in the back which inserts into a hole in the cap, so is not visible.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

TF ASC companies in the West Lancs Division were numbers 505, 506, 507 & 508.
These were formed in the UK on September 1st 1915 and were home forces in the 55th (West Lancashire) Division.
They transferred to the 57th (Second West Lancashire) Division in early 1917, then moved to France where they served as part of that division.

If a man arrived in France as part of the ASC, then his medals, rolls and medal index card would record that fact.

Worth looking at those company diaries. Free from the NA if you create an account:
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354990    (September 1915 - February 1916)

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354991   (February 1917- 1919)

Curiously, the first diary is for a period when they were home based and there was no requirement to keep one. Still, better than not having one.

Edited 2 March , 2022 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[PB BUSH]

OK getting there, what we know

Frank Tough, born Aughton Lancs 1891, Father James Tough, Mother Ann (Annie) Ashcroft.

The chalked writing on the wall behind looks to be West Lancs

Cap badges look to be ASC.

They have spurs on so look to be part of an ASC horse unit rather than mechanised.

There must be a expert buff out there who can join that information together!

[PB BUSH]

Painfully looked through these, nothing there that I could see.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Although your relative almost certainly wouldn't  be named in the diaries, it's worth looking to see if there's  any reference  to a transfer of men to the RFA.

[The Inspector]

On 28/02/2022 at 17:14, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

To be fair, there's no proof from the photo  as to which regiment the man with the instrument  belongs to. He has no specific diagnostic criteria. He wears spurs, so is from a mounted unit, so yes, he could be RFA. He could just as easily be ASC, or be from any other mounted unit of the British Army. The relationship between ASC drivers and rhe Royal Artillery could be quite indistinct, ASC men could be attached to artillery batteries and ammunition columns, but they were still ASC men. However, the strongest evidence from the photo, are the 2 ASC cap badges, and the words ASC written on the wall.

These billets are likely therefore to be 'Somewhere in Britain', and there is no evidence of a Frank Tough in the ASC Medal Rolls, suggesting this or any other man by that name served in France, or any other theatre of war.

However, one possibility is that this photo was taken in the UK when he was in the ASC, that he was at some point transferred to the RFA, then went overseas with them, hence an RFA Medal Roll entry and MIC. The RFA man (219094) didn't serve overseas before 1916.

It would be interesting to work out when that number was issued, and also if @FROGSMILE could perhaps give a time window for the photograph?

Hi All,

???????   There was a Frank Rockcliffe, 99513 RGA. Frank Tough's mother's first marriage surname Rockcliffe. Uniform RGA?  Just posing the question......

Regards Barry

[George Rayner]

A Pension Card-courtesy of Fold3-gives an address

George

[FROGSMILE]

I think you both might well have cracked it!  👍

[George Rayner]

All credit the Inspector...I just tapped a few keys between Kwaks in N. France!

George

[TEW]

Wasn't it established that Frank Tough has pre and post war civilian history (census, birth, death) in the Augton & Ormskirk areas Lancashire.

Frank Rockcliffe AKA Rockliffe from Doncaster, Yorkshire could have comparable history around Doncaster. There does seem to be a Frank Rockcliffe in censuses etc. in Norton and whose home town/place of enlistment was Norton (Casualty Lists for #99513).

TEW

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

And doesn't explain the ASC link.

[FROGSMILE]

A divisional ammunition column link continues to feel like a strong possibility.  The establishment was mixed.

Edited 3 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[The Inspector]

Hi All,

Searching for any clues........this is one very involved family....

Jessie Tough, Frank's older sister married one Robert Huyton  in 1909, Ormskirk, Lancs. ( 3rd Qtr, 8b,1213). They had a son whom they named Frank.

Robert Huyton  was Pte 351101 in the ASC.!! Docs on Ancestry.

Regards Barry

Edited 3 March , 2022 by The Inspector

[PB BUSH]

Frank Rockliffe from Doncaster is a red herring.

Ann Ashcroft married Robert Rockcliffe Aughton Lancs 1870. They had 4 children Margarete 1872, Elizabeth 1873, Robert 1875, Annie 1876. All born in Aughton Lancs, there was no Frank Rockliffe. Husband Robert Rockliffe died 1876

Ann Ashcroft married James Tough, Aughton Lancs 1880. They had 6 children Barbara 11881, Mary 1883, James 1886, Jessie 1888, Frank 1891, Lily 1894. All born in Aughton Lancs.

Apologies Frank was born 1891!

Edited 4 March , 2022 by PB BUSH
Wrong date

[The Inspector]

Hi PB Bush,

Quite right regarding your last post, however there is only one way to find out and that is to check them out. Many soldiers enlisted under a different name  which has been proved frequently.

Any comments on Robert Huyton who was in the ASC ? Your Gran's brother in law.

Regards Barry

[jay dubaya]

A quick search through SDGW reveals several RFA men in the 219*** number block having previous service in the UK with the ASC, mainly T4/ prefix numbers. A home transfer prior to overseas service into the RFA pool may appear to be the most likely journey Frank Tough took.

[PB BUSH]

The only comment about Robert Huyton is that he had a son call Frank born 1910

[jay dubaya]

Having just checked the Medal Rolls 219093 - the man above Frank Tough in the rolls - he was previously Driver T4/236183 ASC

Edited 4 March , 2022 by jay dubaya

[PB BUSH]

So are you saying T4/236183 ASC is Frank Tough?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, PB BUSH said:

So are you saying T4/236183 ASC is Frank Tough?

That's not how I read jaydubya's post.

He wrote that the man before Frank Tough in the RFA rolls, (Driver Thomas Henry Temple, 219093) was previously T4/236183 ASC.

[jay dubaya]

9 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

That's not how I read jaydubya's post.

He wrote that the man before Frank Tough in the RFA rolls, (Driver Thomas Henry Temple, 219093) was previously T4/236183 ASC.

That’s correct Dai, the transfer having taken place before serving overseas and hence not recorded on the MICs or Medal Rolls.