FROGSMILE Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, PB BUSH said: I have taken your advice going back over everything and taking notes and abbreviation meaning. There has also been a lot of conflicting information that hasn't helped, so thank you I’m glad to help and understand that taking it all in can be difficult, especially from multiple sources. By taking notes you will begin to form a picture in your mind and it will also help you focus on any further, specific questions that you may have to clarify matters. Edited 5 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB BUSH Posted 5 March , 2022 Author Share Posted 5 March , 2022 I was asked before if I had a photo of Franks brother James who appears on the Aughton Institute memorial with him. I have just been sent this photo by my sister in-law. It is Frank Toughs brother James Henry Tough b 1886 with Wife Margarete Streatfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, PB BUSH said: I was asked before if I had a photo of Franks brother James who appears on the Aughton Institute memorial with him. I have just been sent this photo by my sister in-law. It is Frank Toughs brother James Henry Tough b 1886 with Wife Margarete Streatfield That appears to show a ASC shoulder title for the Territorial Force West Lancashire. He is a trained and qualified ‘Corporal-Wheelwright’. This photo seems to link with the initial one and suggests a connection. Edited 5 March , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB BUSH Posted 5 March , 2022 Author Share Posted 5 March , 2022 I have a question If a man enlists and is given a service number, then further down the line that man is transferred and gets a new service number. Is his original service number given to someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB BUSH Posted 5 March , 2022 Author Share Posted 5 March , 2022 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: I’m glad to help and understand that taking it all in can be difficult, especially from multiple sources. By taking notes you will begin to form a picture in your mind and it will also help you focus on any further, specific questions that you may have to clarify matters. I have found out what most of the Abbreviations are but there are a few I do not know A&D books, TNA, AVC, SDGW, RGA. Probably obvious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 The National Archives, Army Veterinary Corps, Soldiers Died In The Great War, Royal Garrison Artillery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 A&D books. Every medical unit had to keep Admission and Discharge books and enter the name of each man admitted into the book. The entry would then be updated with discharge information for that man from that medical unit. The two entries I refered to previously are for Catterick and can be seen on Find my Past, paid subscription needed. They should give his age. Other than that it'll give a unit, length of service, ailment and dates for admission and discharge and where he was sent on discharge. The other medical sheet which says 'Groom' is not available online but I'm fairly sure all three relate to the same event. This one should have year of birth, medical details, treatment and probably an outcome. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB BUSH Posted 5 March , 2022 Author Share Posted 5 March , 2022 1 minute ago, PB BUSH said: I have found out what most of the Abbreviations are but there are a few I do not know A&D books, TNA, AVC, SDGW, RGA. Probably obvious! 7 minutes ago, TEW said: A&D books. Every medical unit had to keep Admission and Discharge books and enter the name of each man admitted into the book. The entry would then be updated with discharge information for that man from that medical unit. The two entries I refered to previously are for Catterick and can be seen on Find my Past, paid subscription needed. They should give his age. Other than that it'll give a unit, length of service, ailment and dates for admission and discharge and where he was sent on discharge. The other medical sheet which says 'Groom' is not available online but I'm fairly sure all three relate to the same event. This one should have year of birth, medical details, treatment and probably an outcome. TEW Thank you I have the FMP (I am now an Abbreviation expert!) entries. Perhaps you could answer my earlier question If a man enlists and is given a service number, then further down the line that man is transferred and gets a new service number. Is his original service number given to someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 Hi All, James Henry Tough. ????? James Tough Acting Sgt, RASC M/3470020. Brit/Vic Rolls. MIC Pte. M/347020 ASC. Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB BUSH Posted 5 March , 2022 Author Share Posted 5 March , 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 Sorry, but what is this page, and who does it belong to? It's meaningless without that information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 Sorry, missed your reply as it was appended to a quote. As to: If a man enlists and is given a service number, then further down the line that man is transferred and gets a new service number. Is his original service number given to someone else. I'm not the best person to answer that. I doubt anyone else was given Frank Tough's early ASC number though. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB BUSH Posted 5 March , 2022 Author Share Posted 5 March , 2022 11 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Sorry, but what is this page, and who does it belong to? It's meaningless without that information. Apologies It belongs to James Henry Tough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 32 minutes ago, The Inspector said: Hi All, James Henry Tough. ????? James Tough Acting Sgt, RASC M/3470020. Brit/Vic Rolls. MIC Pte. M/347020 ASC. Regards Barry Given that the image of James shows his qualification as a Wheelwright I’d be sceptical about him serving with a motorised ASC unit. With that in mind, I’d suggest that he is more likely Sgt. T4/160900 James Tough. This service number may appear to have been issued around November/December 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 45 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: Given that the image of James shows his qualification as a Wheelwright I’d be sceptical about him serving with a motorised ASC unit. With that in mind, I’d suggest that he is more likely Sgt. T4/160900 James Tough. This service number may appear to have been issued around November/December 1915. Are any of the genealogical detectives able to summarise where this line of inquiry has reached? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 I too spotted Sgt. T4/160900 James Tough and given that Jay suggested an ASC T4 prefix for Frank the two men could have joined up into the ASC at similar times. I couldn't find anything else for James to confirm the link to T4/160900. BUT! A James Henry Tough has a birth registration in Ormskirk in 1886. The service record for James Henry should be able to ID him correctly or eliminate him altogether. There is another JHT born in Sunderland 1885 which could equate to M/3470020. Methinks James could be more tricky! TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 Frank & James Henry Tough, both births registered in Ormskirk 1891 & 1886 respectively. Ashcroft is the mother's maiden name for both. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 11 minutes ago, TEW said: I too spotted Sgt. T4/160900 James Tough and given that Jay suggested an ASC T4 prefix for Frank the two men could have joined up into the ASC at similar times. Not unusual and added for clarification service numbers either side of this James Tough (T4/160899 and T4/160901) are not included on the rolls, there are also further numbers from the sequence missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin kenf48 Posted 5 March , 2022 Admin Share Posted 5 March , 2022 11 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: Are any of the genealogical detectives able to summarise where this line of inquiry has reached? 4 hours ago, PB BUSH said: I have a question If a man enlists and is given a service number, then further down the line that man is transferred and gets a new service number. Is his original service number given to someone else. To answer the last question first, numbers were issued sequentially and were not recycled. There was much duplication, especially in the TF and in some instances the regular Army took four digit numbers and recycled them once they reached 9999. Neither is relevant in this instance. To summarise:- Frank Tough has an unusual name and has been identified on the medal roll as serving in a theatre of war as a Gunner in the Royal Field Artillery. His service number is 219094. He was not entitled to the 14- 15 Star and therefore did not enter a theatre of war before the 31.12.1915. He is on the RFA Roll indicating that was his last unit. Genealogical information shows he was experienced in handling horses before joining the Army and he was married. He came from Aughton in Lancashire and survived the war. The West Lancashire Division (TF) Transport and Supply Column Headquarters was at Southport. Other Companies were located at Aigburth and Liverpool. The West Lancashire Division became the 55th (West Lancashire) Division when it moved to France. The original Divisional Train remained on Home Service see http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/55th-west-lancashire-division/ On 31 August 1916 Territorial ASC units were absorbed into the Reguar ASC and renumbered in the T4/ series See Graham Stewart's post on this earlier thread Eseentially they lost their identity as a local unit and were in the frame for being dealt with as wartime' duration of war ' enlistments. Accordingly in 1917 as a consequence of the 'manpower crisis' occasioned by the losses of 1916 these men were posted to the No 4 (TF) Artillery Reserve Brigade and renumbered around February 1917. To date I have found:- 219018 number allocated at No 4 TF Artillery Reserve Brigade 5 February 1917 219044 Ball enlisted April 1915 T4/160831 487 Coy ASC Dvr 219091 Nickson to France 13.4. 1917 Formerly T4/160881 West Lancashire Division 219051 Barr Derby recruit 219130 O'Donnell Formerly T4/109748 Blackpool 6th June 1915 Posted to France 2nd February 1917 Posted 63 DAC 10.3.1917 O'Donnell had previously served in France with the ASC as had a number on the Roll around him There is a clear pattern of ASC men being transferred to the RFA in February 1917 and embarking for the BEF in March or April where they were posted to active service units. As for James Tough and his relationship to Frank I'm not sure how much relevance it has to the initial query. They were brothers,as the OP has identified, Frank was born in 1891, James in 1896. Barbara (back of photo)was the older sister born in 1882 (1891 census). It would not be unusual for brothers to enlist in the same TF Unit. After the ACI referred to above their paths would diverge according to the army's need. James number, as has been identified above, would be in the T4/160*** series as in the men transferred to the RFA. I'm unable to say if these were compulsory transfers to the RFA, will have a look later. I suspect Frank was more likely a wartime enlistment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 21 minutes ago, kenf48 said: To answer the last question first, numbers were issued sequentially and were not recycled. There was much duplication, especially in the TF and in some instances the regular Army took four digit numbers and recycled them once they reached 9999. Neither is relevant in this instance. To summarise:- Frank Tough has an unusual name and has been identified on the medal roll as serving in a theatre of war as a Gunner in the Royal Field Artillery. His service number is 219094. He was not entitled to the 14- 15 Star and therefore did not enter a theatre of war before the 31.12.1915. He is on the RFA Roll indicating that was his last unit. Genealogical information shows he was experienced in handling horses before joining the Army and he was married. He came from Aughton in Lancashire and survived the war. The West Lancashire Division (TF) Transport and Supply Column Headquarters was at Southport. Other Companies were located at Aigburth and Liverpool. The West Lancashire Division became the 55th (West Lancashire) Division when it moved to France. The original Divisional Train remained on Home Service see http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/55th-west-lancashire-division/ On 31 August 1916 Territorial ASC units were absorbed into the Reguar ASC and renumbered in the T4/ series See Graham Stewart's post on this earlier thread Eseentially they lost their identity as a local unit and were in the frame for being dealt with as wartime' duration of war ' enlistments. Accordingly in 1917 as a consequence of the 'manpower crisis' occasioned by the losses of 1916 these men were posted to the No 4 (TF) Artillery Reserve Brigade and renumbered around February 1917. To date I have found:- 219018 number allocated at No 4 TF Artillery Reserve Brigade 5 February 1917 219044 Ball enlisted April 1915 T4/160831 487 Coy ASC Dvr 219091 Nickson to France 13.4. 1917 Formerly T4/160881 West Lancashire Division 219051 Barr Derby recruit 219130 O'Donnell Formerly T4/109748 Blackpool 6th June 1915 Posted to France 2nd February 1917 Posted 63 DAC 10.3.1917 O'Donnell had previously served in France with the ASC as had a number on the Roll around him There is a clear pattern of ASC men being transferred to the RFA in February 1917 and embarking for the BEF in March or April where they were posted to active service units. As for James Tough and his relationship to Frank I'm not sure how much relevance it has to the initial query. They were brothers,as the OP has identified, Frank was born in 1891, James in 1896. Barbara (back of photo)was the older sister born in 1882 (1891 census). It would not be unusual for brothers to enlist in the same TF Unit. After the ACI referred to above their paths would diverge according to the army's need. James number, as has been identified above, would be in the T4/160*** series as in the men transferred to the RFA. I'm unable to say if these were compulsory transfers to the RFA, will have a look later. I suspect Frank was more likely a wartime enlistment. Excellent rundown Ken, it makes for a much more clearer sequence of events and consolidates all the previous posts into a coherent whole. Thank you for taking the time to lay it all out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, jay dubaya said: Given that the image of James shows his qualification as a Wheelwright I’d be sceptical about him serving with a motorised ASC unit. With that in mind, I’d suggest that he is more likely Sgt. T4/160900 James Tough. This service number may appear to have been issued around November/December 1915. Hi All, James Henry Tough b.1886 Ormskirk (Aughton), Lancs, 8b,833( he is the correct one) married Marguerite Streatfield 4th qtr 1915 in Ormskirk, 8b,1720. She was a daughter of the Manager of the Talbot Hotel, Ormskirk. The marriage cert. may prove if he was serving at that time. None of the trees I have found on Ancestry have any records of his Army service....as we know he died in New Zealand.. 20th Jan, 1929. I still think other relatives may hold the clue for Frank! Regards Barry Edited 5 March , 2022 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB BUSH Posted 5 March , 2022 Author Share Posted 5 March , 2022 James Henry Tough Marriage certificate, Sergeant ASC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 5 March , 2022 Share Posted 5 March , 2022 (edited) Hi All, Further to Frank's d of b.......He was baptised on the 29th January, 1891 therefore his birth date must have been 1890 not 1891. It looks as though Frank was a witness at James Tough's wedding. The signatures on his marriage cert. and the one above are very similar. Thanks PB Bush, is there anything else you can tell us about the service record below? Have you got the other pages of his service record, if it is James Henry Tough it would seem strange for him to revert from a Sergeant to a Gunner, although I stand to be corrected by the experts on the GWF. 7 hours ago, PB BUSH said: Edited 5 March , 2022 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB BUSH Posted 6 March , 2022 Author Share Posted 6 March , 2022 The Inspector, here is the other associated document. A red herring I think. With all the service numbers being bandied about I now have less idea than ever as to James or Franks service numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 6 March , 2022 Share Posted 6 March , 2022 Frank Tough is likely Gunner 219094 RFA, further evidence has this man as a Driver with 47th DAC - since the rank of Gunner appears on his medal entitlement his medals will have been impressed as such. James Tough is likely Sgt T4/160900 ASC, no details as to which unit but likely to be one of the units of the West Lancashire Divisional Train ASC of the 57th Division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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