Can anyone recognise the uniform / regiment that the men in the attached are from

[George Rayner]

Is there any mileage in trying to find James Tough? Listed next on the memorial?

George

[George Rayner]

In an earlier post you say Frank did not survive the war? How do you know?

does your Frank have a brother called James as well as his father being James?

George

[PB BUSH]

Good morning George,

One of your posts yesterday you stated the following, are you able to send over the reference to census listing Frank as a groom

"There is a Frank Tough who is listed as a groom in the census-pressed for time and can't quickly get reference for you Sorry"

Frank did have a brother named James Henry Tough who married a Margaret Streatfield and they emigrated to New Zealand had a son 8th September 1924 and named him Frank in memory of his uncle that died in WW1. James died and is buried in Napier New Zealand.

You ask how do I know Frank died in the War? As most information, it gets handed down through the family. And I can hear you all say stories get distorted as they get passed on, and that's true, however, there must be a record of him dying. And no he didn't go to NZ with his brother as the family have been there to visit their home and graves.

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, PB BUSH said:

Thank you all for your comments

Can anyone decipher the word above the chalked ASC initials

I can’t quite make it out.  I thought it might say “Wisding”, but that doesn’t immediately make a lot of sense. 

NB.  One possibility might be the unit’s geographic origin if it’s a TF ASC unit.

Edited 28 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PB BUSH]

Thank you

I have sent an email to the Aughton institute to see if they have any record of Franks service number or army unit

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Are the words actually written on the pillar?

Or are they on the negative, written by the photographer?

It's just that there's an upstroke at the very end of "Wisding" that seems to cross into the dark area to the right.

And the full stop after '12' is suspiciously close to the soldier's hairline.

 

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Are the words actually written on the pillar?

Or are they on the negative, written by the photographer?

It's just that there's an upstroke at the very end of "Wisding" that seems to cross into the dark area to the right.

And the full stop after '12' is suspiciously close to the soldier's hairline.

 

You raise a good point Dai, and I can see why you’re saying it.  I’ll remain open minded to other’s views, but it’s true that, as was mentioned by travers61, the chalk marks are typically laid out like those placed by a billeting officer.  Also the positioning on the stone column seems too logical a placement of the markings to be coincidental.

Edited 28 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

Some replies snipped for brevity.

1 hour ago, PB BUSH said:

You ask how do I know Frank died in the War? As most information, it gets handed down through the family. And I can hear you all say stories get distorted as they get passed on, and that's true, however, there must be a record of him dying.

Peter

Using an exact search there are only three contenders. Two have WWII entries and are far too young but perhaps they've added to the family stories? The Ormskirk man has the correct DOB.

Image Courtesy of TheGenealogist.

TEW

[PB BUSH]

Thank you lots to look into

[PB BUSH]

This will probably stay a mystery now, I have taken on board all your comments and would probably agree that he died in 1952 in Ormskirk, however, you would have thought there would be some information out there as to his army corps and service number. Like so many of you I think he was in the ASC but there's a photo but nothing on record to back that up.

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, PB BUSH said:

This will probably stay a mystery now, I have taken on board all your comments and would probably agree that he died in 1952 in Ormskirk, however, you would have thought there would be some information out there as to his army corps and service number. Like so many of you I think he was in the ASC but there's a photo but nothing on record to back that up.

Peter

I suspect he might have served under a different first name.  Quite a few men chose to use their middle name (if they had one) , especially so if named after their fathers.  Exploring some likely name variations might prove to be worthwhile.

Edited 28 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PB BUSH]

No middle name and the name Frank only appeared after two children down the next two generations were named after Frank, 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, PB BUSH said:

No middle name and the name Frank only appeared after two children down the next two generations were named after Frank, 

Then perhaps a completely assumed name, which wasn’t uncommon.  Failing that it might be home service only and the photo seems to negate that if he has been positively identified within it. 

[TEW]

4 minutes ago, PB BUSH said:

This will probably stay a mystery now, I have taken on board all your comments and would probably agree that he died in 1952 in Ormskirk, however, you would have thought there would be some information out there as to his army corps and service number. Like so many of you I think he was in the ASC but there's a photo but nothing on record to back that up.

Peter

 

The problem is that men who did not serve in a theatre of war don't have medal information and in the event of no service or pension file that leaves just about nothing. If he didn't serve abroad it's unlikely there would be any wound or medical records.

I tend to look at these things as, so far there are three characters.

1. Man in photo with the instrument. Not proved conclusively to be Frank Tough, no unit proved, could be ASC or RFA.
2. Frank Tough, born Aughton Lancs 1891.
3. Frank Tough #219094 RFA.

You have to try to make links between the three, perhaps by occupation or whatever you can find. All three have a connection via horses.

The https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17192531 sheet could have an address, NOK or full DOB for all we know.

TEW

[PB BUSH]

 Yes a mystery, below is the back of the photo identifying who the person holding the instrument is.                                                           

 

 

[PB BUSH]

TEW 

1. Identification is solid the man in the Picture is Frank Tough without doubt.

2. Where and when he was born is solid.

3. F Tough 219094 is doubtful, not even sure where he ended up.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

To be fair, there's no proof from the photo  as to which regiment the man with the instrument  belongs to. He has no specific diagnostic criteria. He wears spurs, so is from a mounted unit, so yes, he could be RFA. He could just as easily be ASC, or be from any other mounted unit of the British Army. The relationship between ASC drivers and rhe Royal Artillery could be quite indistinct, ASC men could be attached to artillery batteries and ammunition columns, but they were still ASC men. However, the strongest evidence from the photo, are the 2 ASC cap badges, and the words ASC written on the wall.

These billets are likely therefore to be 'Somewhere in Britain', and there is no evidence of a Frank Tough in the ASC Medal Rolls, suggesting this or any other man by that name served in France, or any other theatre of war.

However, one possibility is that this photo was taken in the UK when he was in the ASC, that he was at some point transferred to the RFA, then went overseas with them, hence an RFA Medal Roll entry and MIC. The RFA man (219094) didn't serve overseas before 1916.

It would be interesting to work out when that number was issued, and also if @FROGSMILE could perhaps give a time window for the photograph?

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

To be fair, there's no proof from the photo  as to which regiment the man with the instrument  belongs to. He has no specific diagnostic criteria. He wears spurs, so is from a mounted unit, so yes, he could be RFA. He could just as easily be ASC, or be from any other mounted unit of the British Army. The relationship between ASC drivers and rhe Royal Artillery could be quite indistinct, ASC men could be attached to artillery batteries and ammunition columns, but they were still ASC men. However, the strongest evidence from the photo, are the 2 ASC cap badges, and the words ASC written on the wall.

These billets are likely therefore to be 'Somewhere in Britain', and there is no evidence of a Frank Tough in the ASC Medal Rolls, suggesting this or any other man by that name served in France, or any other theatre of war.

However, one possibility is that this photo was taken in the UK when he was in the ASC, that he was at some point transferred to the RFA, then went overseas with them, hence an RFA Medal Roll entry and MIC. The RFA man (219094) didn't serve overseas before 1916.

It would be interesting to work out when that number was issued, and also if @FROGSMILE could perhaps give a time window for the photograph?

I agree with your comments about the difficulties in this case of identifying an all encompassing cap badge and unit.  
Evidence for dating is also scarce, but if pushed I’d say that the billet has a Britain look about it and both the visible SD caps are P1905, so it seems likely to me to be winter 1915.

Edited 28 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Thanks frogsmile,

 

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Thanks frogsmile,

 

It would be during that period of intense training of the New Armies in Britain whilst the remaining old contemptibles and first echelon TF were holding the line.

Edited 28 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Nearest number I've found is 219033 Birnie. Attested February 1916, went overseas May 1917.Doesn't prove anything of course, but doesn't discount the possibility of home service in ASC then RFA service overseas.

[ariedl]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I can’t quite make it out.  I thought it might say “Wisding”, but that doesn’t immediately make a lot of sense. 

NB.  One possibility might be the unit’s geographic origin if it’s a TF ASC unit.

I’m not sure if the mark at the end is a crease on the photo or part of the writing, but my first thought was that it said “West Lanc.” above ASC. Whether or not that makes any sense, I don’t know.

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, ariedl said:

I’m not sure if the mark at the end is a crease on the photo or part of the writing, but my first thought was that it said “West Lanc.” above ASC. Whether or not that makes any sense, I don’t know.

A good thought and there were certainly West Lancashire units as you probably know, but I can’t personally say that I see the same thing.  I hope that many more will pitch in with what they see.

[PB BUSH]

Excellent discussion, I am learning a lot from your expert opinions

I also thought the words above ASC said West Lancs, I am glad someone concurs.

My own expertise is in Architecture and building, and around the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century we the British generally used square ceramic tiles and the French generally used oblong. Look behind the men, just a thought!

[PhilB]

If that’s a capital L in the middle, then Divisional Train, 55 West Lancs Div ASC makes sense.