Can anyone recognise the uniform / regiment that the men in the attached are from

[PB BUSH]

[Coldstreamer]

Says ASC on the wall 

[Michelle Young]

And the cap badges on display also look like ASC-Army Service Corps.

[PB BUSH]

The only information I can find for a man with this name and his date of birth is that he is with the Royal field Artillery, is that possible 

[Coldstreamer]

What name etc have you got and what’s the source of info ?

Possible as endless reasons for photo. Seeing mates/brother/transferred units 

[PB BUSH]

The photo is of a distant member of my family tree, name Frank Tough, born Aughton Lancs 1891

my source that led me to believe he was in the Royal field artillery was from "find my past'

My relative says that her grandmothers brother is the one in the middle with the instrument. I thought he could have been in the horse artillery by the fact that they have spurs on  

[Coldstreamer]

Spurs Seem to be frequently worn in photos for artistic reasons

[CorporalPunishment]

They are members of a Horse Transport unit of the Army Service Corps. They could possibly be from a Divisional Ammunition Column attached to the Royal Artillery.     Pete.

[PB BUSH]

Thanks for your help so far, a couple more questions.

Can someone make out the wording above the ASC letters above the men in the photo

The man to the right of the man holding the instrument is he holding a riding crop.

Looks very similar to what a Field Artillery soldier would carry attached photo

 

[Michelle Young]

As ASC were also mounted, horse transport unit as Pete pointed out, a riding crop makes sense. Sorry, but the visible cap badges are not artillery. 

[PB BUSH]

Thanks,

Don't be sorry, I am just trying to make some sense of the photo.

The only Frank Tough I can find is service number 219094 Royal Field Artillery, I am reliably informed that he died in the war.

Can anyone point me in another direction of search

[George Rayner]

There is a Frank Tough who is listed as a groom in the census-pressed for time and can't quickly get reference for you Sorry

George

[Michelle Young]

No F Tough on CWGC. [for the Great War]

[jay dubaya]

There is also a Frank Tough born 29th December 1891 married to Elizabeth. In 1939 they are living with their 3 children - Frank, Elizabeth J and Joan D at Deyes  Lane

[jay dubaya]

Possibly Frank Tough that died... in a later war CWGC link parents and age fits for the Frank Tough I posted above.

[TEW]

Apart from the two A&D books on FMP for #219094 there is another (not online) sheet with TNA for Trench Fever, treated in the UK.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C17192531

This says he's 47th DAC, RFA.

TEW

[travers61]

The photograph has been taken outside a private house or hotel/guest house being used as billets, and is possibly in the UK. Possibly the later due to there being a bench outside it. Maybe an enterprising local photographer came along the roads & took photos.

The billeting officer or NCO would have chalked on each house in advance of the units arrival & sometimes the company/platoon number, as well as the number of men it could accomodate.  So in this case could be No 1 section etc of the ASC and twelve could be billeted there.  We see six of those or with possibly some soldiers from neighbouring houses.

Did he play that musicial instrument or was it from the householder.

Lack of traceable records could of course mean that he did not serve abroad.

Travers

Edited 27 February , 2022 by travers61

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Coldstreamer said:

Spurs Seem to be frequently worn in photos for artistic reasons

Not artistic reasons back then, they were actually a part of stipulated “walking-out-dress” for mounted duty corps such as cavalry, RHA/RFA, ASC, and AVC.  On the same basis a whip was carried rather than a swagger stick, and usually a bandolier worn instead of a waist belt.

NB.  I agree with the Army Service Corps identification.  Most men of the Divisional Ammunition Column were ASC, although I seem to recall they also had some artillery on their establishment table.  @Ron Clifton’s collection of establishment tables should confirm.

Edited 27 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[TEW]

1911 census has a Frank Tough b1891, visitor to the Rossington family of Asmall House Scarbrick. Occupation given as Coachman and place of birth given as Tower Green which is close to or part of Augton.

1901 census. I suspect same man living in Bold Lane, Aughton and born Augton. Parents were James & Annie.

I assume it's the 1921 census that shows Groom? This matches the occupation on the medical sheet for 219094 Tough.

Although the sheet says '47th DAC, RFA' his MIC only has RFA. Wouldn't a DAC have a mix of Artillery & ASC?

There are lanyards of different colours and possibly some men without one. A mixed group in the photo despite the chalked 'ASC'?

All three 219094 MH106 records relate to Catterick with the TNA sheet mentioning other places as well. Not seen the originals but I think it's Dec 1917 to Feb 1918.

TEW

 

 

 

 

[PB BUSH]

Thank you all for your comments and in reply to 

JA DUBAYA The Frank Tough who married Elizabeth is not my man.

My Frank Tough was born 1891 in Town Green, Aughton Ormskirk Father James Tough mother Ann (Annie) Ashcroft.

I know he did not survive the war and the link to the war graves is not my Frank. The only match that I can find is Frank Tough Service number 219094.

There is a war memorial in Aughton with his name on but no regiment or service number,

My Frank tough did live in Tower Green and Bold lane too.

Can anyone decipher the word above the chalked ASC initials

Thanks again to you all for all your help

[TEW]

Looks more likely to me that he died in Ormskirk in 1952. No one's found a CWGC record and there's no Soldiers Died entry either.

The FMP entry is for men who served not necessarily died.

https://www.warmemorialsonline.org.uk/memorial/181818/

TEW

[Michelle Young]

I can find  no Frank Tough/F F Tough that match on CWCG. I can only assume his name is wrong on the memorial. Link to all the Tough for the Great War on CWGC.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/search-results/?Surname=Tough&Forename=&Initials=&ServiceNum=&Regiment=&WarSelect=1&CountryCommemoratedIn=null&Cemetery=&Unit=&Rank=&SecondaryRegiment=&AgeOfDeath=0&DateDeathFromDay=1&DateDeathFromMonth=January&DateDeathFromYear=&DateDeathToDay=1&DateDeathToMonth=January&DateDeathToYear=&DateOfDeath=&Honours=null&AdditionalInfo=

[jay dubaya]

The Aughton Institute Roll of Honour Memorial clearly indicates Frank Tough survived.

Edited 27 February , 2022 by jay dubaya

[PB BUSH]

Thank you everyone, I can only assume that Frank Tough 219094 has to be my man.

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

1911 census has a Frank Tough b1891, visitor to the Rossington family of Asmall House Scarbrick. Occupation given as Coachman and place of birth given as Tower Green which is close to or part of Augton.

1901 census. I suspect same man living in Bold Lane, Aughton and born Augton. Parents were James & Annie.

I assume it's the 1921 census that shows Groom? This matches the occupation on the medical sheet for 219094 Tough.

Although the sheet says '47th DAC, RFA' his MIC only has RFA. Wouldn't a DAC have a mix of Artillery & ASC?

There are lanyards of different colours and possibly some men without one. A mixed group in the photo despite the chalked 'ASC'?

All three 219094 MH106 records relate to Catterick with the TNA sheet mentioning other places as well. Not seen the originals but I think it's Dec 1917 to Feb 1918.

TEW

 

 

 

 

1.  Yes I believe a DAC did indeed have a mixed establishment of ASC and RA.

2.  Don’t read too much into lanyards, as frankly a lot of misleading suggestions are made about them.  It was not official RA policy to whiten them formally until the 1920s, and only in the 1950s did coloured lanyards become a ‘thing’ pan-Army (to smarten up battle dress post WW2).  
During WW1 every soldier was issued a lanyard with his clasp knife and whitening them was localised and arbitrary, as a factor towards smartening up what had become a citizen army when out of the line.  No sane soldier wanted a white aiming mark affixed to his shoulder.

Edited 27 February , 2022 by FROGSMILE