Casualty Lists - an index

[TEW]

Finally,

#319 & #322 read as list number 24933. They are 29433. Both on page 20.

TEW

[David26]

Thanks TEW!  I have made the following changes:

276		Corrected list number, and added cross-reference to transcript posted at 11
11		Added cross reference to 276
4551		Added date
1526		Removed as duplicate of 4553
319		Corrected list number
322		Corrected list number

David.

[David26]

And just to add that in going through all the lists again transcribing the RFA/RHA men I found 3 typos I had made on list numbers near the bottom of page 47 (so must have been having a bad day, that day!):

2135		Corrected list number to HA 20127
2143		Corrected list number to HA 23124
2149		Corrected prefix to HA

David

[TEW]

Two straight forward items.

#226. Currently shown as List 20983. Not printed perfectly but I'm sure it's 20989.

 

 

#185. Part of a group of amended lists on List 25297 (#182). Currently illegible but list number appears to be 21482

TEW

[TEW]

David,

#1910

This is undated at present. It reads Taken off dangerously ill list. I've just found a SR for Faraer [sic] which has an entry for this event which refers to the list number M12700. This gives a date of 1915 11 12.

TEW

[David26]

5 minutes ago, TEW said:

#1910

This is undated at present. It reads Taken off dangerously ill list. I've just found a SR for Faraer [sic] which has an entry for this event which refers to the list number M12700. This gives a date of 1915 11 12.

Thanks TEW - great find!

David.

[TEW]

Also looking at #1907. A NF file with TheRooms. List number M 11130 page 122/132 of the PDF.

Sheet says Dangerously ill,  the man was dangerously wounded 1915 10 16. Spreadsheet 1908 & 1909 are for him as well and are dated for Oct 1915.

The Dangerously ill  part stems from a secondary haemorrhage reported by Red Cross 1915 11 02. He was off the list by the 5th Nov.

TEW

 

[TEW]

I've noticed some fragments of 1914 lists in another format. Thought I'd try to find a full page for these lists and found one headed: Part one, page 7.

Then found Part one, page 50!!!

I'll upload these in due course. Was hoping to glean more pages for this but a minimum of 50 pages for part one is a step too far.

TEW

 

[TEW]

David,

A few more items spotted.

#166.4
Spreadsheet gives date as 1915 96 09. It should read 1915 05 09.

 

#80 
Spreadsheet has list number as P15?305. I found a service file for one of the men and he was reported on List P165052 a few weeks earlier. I'm 99% sure the list should read P165305

 

#108
Spreadsheet gives list number as 25656, it should read 25655.

 

See attached image. I've been looking at a lot of these Amendment lists. #293 is a header sheet for Amendment List 25213 which comprises extracts from thirty earlier lists. At present #293 & list 25213 is dated to 1915 05 04 whereas the header sheet gives a date for List 25213.

At present there are three pages from List number 25213 which should all have the same date as per the header sheet not the date of the original list.

I'm afraid I'm going to have more of these as I've gleaned more header sheets for other amendment lists.

 

TEW

[David26]

On 03/05/2022 at 16:44, TEW said:

I've noticed some fragments of 1914 lists in another format. Thought I'd try to find a full page for these lists and found one headed: Part one, page 7.

Then found Part one, page 50!!!

TEW,

that's intriguing. 

One of the extra pieces of information I am adding into the index is where a list contains what I take to be a page number on it like in this list Brian posted recently which, as you observed, was annotated by a Miss Hitchcock.  In this example, the page number appears at the foot of the sheet and is p25.  What is interesting is that these numbers only start appearing in about June 1918 and they are all multiples of 5, so 15, 20, 25 etc.  The highest such page number I have noted is p60 (e.g. H.A.36971, #1352).  I don't know the significance of these, but as I say, I am now noting them on the index in case they start to reveal anything.

David.

[David26]

4 hours ago, TEW said:

A few more items spotted.

Thanks TEW!

changes to 166.4, 80 and 108 made.

On the final one (293) I can see that this needs a bit of adjusting.  My suggestion would be that:

for #293 (25213) the best date to quote would be the date when DAG Base issued all the amendments (i.e. 18 May 1915), and for the lists being amended, to use the original date of the list so: 

294		19359	1915 05 04
295		20603	1915 05 12
296		21107	1915 05 14
297		21123	1915 05 14

If you agree, then #4890 and #4893 should also, I suggest, be 18 May 1915.

How does that sound?

David.

 

 

Edited 6 May , 2022 by David26
Adding additional information

[TEW]

First point.

I've noticed these numbers. The NF sheets seem to have high quantities of 35. I don't know the significance but seems too much of a coincidence that one sheet of a list recording NF men (and others) is frequently No. 35.

Scary thought as well that EG. HA lists originally ran to that amount of pages.

Keeping a tally would be the only way to attempt to determine their purpose but it sounds like a task!

Second point.

The amendment lists are difficult things. So far they date from April to possibly early July 1916. They seem to coincide with the new system of reporting casualties I posted on previously, this is late March 1915.

They also span the cross over from no prefix 29**** numbers to the first H lists which I think at present start at H 100.

I've gleaned quite a number of additional amendment pages/lists to those on the spreadsheet and another batch not yet uploaded. Some of these these will provide a date as issued by DAG as per the 25213 case.

I've had to start a seperate worksheet just for these amendment lists.

I agree with dating #293 which is page 1 or the 'header' sheet as per the DAG date and the sub-lists by the dates given. I have more of these to add or edit.

NB. these are extracts from an original earlier list which may in some cases span a date range so as a hypothetical example list 19359 (#294) might be on multiple amendment lists with different dates!

I've seen some odd things with men bouncing around on a succession of amendment lists as No trace and yet SR shows a relevant entry had already  been made.

TEW

 

[TEW]

David,

#4854

I've just uploaded 'Amendment list 24885 sheet 8 with amendments to list 20265' to page 68.

I was going to suggest a correction to this one which is #4854 as the current number is shown as 24886. However, the version I found has slightly more entries and is clearer.

It is list 24885 not 24886.

Perhaps delete #4854 rather than correct it then add the one from page 68?

TEW

[TEW]

David,

#126.

Similar story to the DAG date for the list in #293 in a previous post. #126 is currently undated. The DAG date for this is 30th June 1915. The lists underlined in red we already have as 126.1-126.4 and are correct. Somewhere there maybe page 2.

TEW

[TEW]

Yesterday I uploaded C405, sheet 1. 4th Rifle Brigade. Rifle Depot. The list is dated but lacks the year.

Just checked a few SRs and they all relate to 1915 events. So perhaps 1915 03 07

TEW

[David26]

With one of the recent postings by @TEW on the Casualty Lists, we now have three lists marked H.7117 (at entries 267, 566 and (yet to be published) 5240).  Between them they appear to be the original sheet plus continuation sheets 2 and 3.  

#267

#566

 

#5240

(Images courtesy of FMP)

What I find interesting is that in #566 and #5240 the '(CONTD.)' comes, as it always does for continuation sheets, after the Corps / Records Office as if it is implying that these are continuations of RE and ASC personnel respectively rather than a continuation of the list.  Or am I missing something?  

Incidentally, I hope to publish a 'May' version of the index in the next few days since there have been well over 200 additional lists published since the 'April' version of the index,

David.

 

 

 

[TEW]

Certainly looks like the page preceding 3 should end with an ASC list. But sheet 2 has none, oh dear!

#267 original is in the SR of a DLI man and York records office. Looks as though Ancestry & FMP have not scanned the reverse which is odd.

None of the 3 pages have any connection to York office so one would expect another page for H7117 with a York relevance. Unless every page of every list was telegraphed to each office regardless of need.

I've seen a few that have sheet 1 of 2 which at least shows the total for that list (hopefully).

Makes you wonder that along with the large gaps between list numbers so far indexed that equate to missing lists how many pages each list had and the total of missing images.

TEW

[dink999]

13 hours ago, TEW said:

Certainly looks like the page preceding 3 should end with an ASC list. But sheet 2 has none, oh dear!

#267 original is in the SR of a DLI man and York records office. Looks as though Ancestry & FMP have not scanned the reverse which is odd.

None of the 3 pages have any connection to York office so one would expect another page for H7117 with a York relevance. Unless every page of every list was telegraphed to each office regardless of need.

I've seen a few that have sheet 1 of 2 which at least shows the total for that list (hopefully).

Makes you wonder that along with the large gaps between list numbers so far indexed that equate to missing lists how many pages each list had and the total of missing images.

TEW

New I've got another H 7117 page with the York Office details, though no page number. I'm posting it on the main Casualty Lists page

Dave

[TEW]

Glad to see a York office connection to H7117.

I notice the same originating SR has a H7280 page 2. Page 1 was uploaded to forum page 25. The same Cont. problem exists on page 2 which starts RH & RFA Cont. whereas page 1 ends with RE.

TEW

[David26]

Thanks both.  It appears that of the 5238 entries on the index, we now have 33 different list numbers which appear at least twice where the page number is the same (or in most cases such as the H.7117 page Dave just posted, have no page number).  I had hoped that the presence of the 'Contd' might help shed light on how this was coming about, but so far, it remains a mystery to me.

David.

[TEW]

Certainly mysterious.

Thought I'd add the H 7280 similar example.

TEW

[David26]

Here is an updated copy of the index.  It is posted here, as well as updating post 1, at the helpful suggestion of a forum member.  (EDIT - I have since removed the duplicate copy from post 1)

This copy of the index has 248 new entries on it since the last version posted in April.   It also contains a number of improvements on the previous version, thanks in large part to very helpful observations from various forum members.   Most of these changes provide additional information in the comments, but it has also included a small number of corrections to list numbers and dates, and the removal of five entries which were duplicates of other entries.  If anyone would like a full list of the changes please PM me.Casualty Lists as at 2022 05 21.csv

Edited 5 December , 2022 by David26
Updating

[TEW]

To avoid duplications I've been keeping tabs on my and others' uploads from#5060 to #5264.

Just looking through V3:

#5072 Has - M 5242 1915 09 04 65 TEW.
I have no record of this and cannot see it on p65.

TEW

[David26]

3 hours ago, TEW said:

To avoid duplications I've been keeping tabs on my and others' uploads from#5060 to #5264.

Just looking through V3:

#5072 Has - M 5242 1915 09 04 65 TEW.
I have no record of this and cannot see it on p65.

TEW

Hi TEW,

this is one of those occasions where a second list is embedded further down on a sheet with another list.  In this case, M.5242 appears on the same sheet as M.5230.  Given the shading and water damage on the sheet, it is easily missed:

 

David.

 

[TEW]

Thanks, spent quite a while checking and looking for it as well.

TEW