Casualty Lists - an index

[TEW]

The reverse of this AF W3040 has some standard C or HA list numbers underlined in green. Not sure I understand how the numbers circled in red fit in. They follow a numerical/chronological sequence.

TEW

[TEW]

Copy of telegram and extract from Statement of Services. Telegram refers to P 62996 which fits in datewise with a progress report, date matches other P lists in spreadsheet.

Then the odd C5411 reference, seen on both items. Highest C list on spreadsheet is C1725 of October 1918. A C list of the known type should be in the range 119* - 120*.

Another type of C List?

TEW

[charlie962]

On 05/04/2022 at 16:40, TEW said:

found some interesting forms within a WO363 file, will upload into different posts.

First one is a NOK AF W3040,

I posted a link the other day to a similar form W3034 (edit- I mean W3040) that has 13 HD references, on Brian's thread of partial lists here.

"Partial Casualty Lists 1916 - Page 10 - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum"

I cannot post the page itself but you might like to do so. 

Two points. 

It is B103 that quotes W3034 as reference rather than the other way round.

It is clear from the further HD lists shared by Dink that the D in HD is far wider than just IEF'D' and thus a coincidence. (This was a hare I set running, briefly)

Charlie

 

Edited 7 April , 2022 by charlie962

[dink999]

Interesting info, I've checked and I don't have any of the lists mentioned on the W3040 fprms posted.

As for those numbers you circled in red I wonder if the are related to correspondence sent to the record office dealing with the Highland Light Infantry that Shaw was serving with.

I have not found any paperwork dealing with the HLI but some other documents have stamps with numbers written inside that may be connected

Dave

[TEW]

Charlie & Dink999,

I spotted the other post regarding the W3034 form but alas I don't have a paid up FMP account. I think they should look a bit like the pages of the A&D books for CCSs/Hospitals etc?

I also have some memos regarding the use of W3034 and that it superseded a B213 AF A36 (I think). These were being returned to AG incorrectly filled out quite often and more than likely are the point of origin for the errors seen.

I'll add the W3034 memos later.

I did note that each W3034 form had to be numbered sequentially and that number was transmitted to the WO which might be the numbers circled in red.

I'm speculating it was the WO who assigned the HA etc. numbers based on a list telegraphed from the AG using a different number series, perhaps based on the W3034 serial number.

TEW

Edited 6 April , 2022 by TEW
Correction of Army Form details

[TEW]

A few memos circulated by the DDMS Boulogne Base. Looks like the W 3034 replaced the A 36 form March 1915.

TEW

 

ADMS office Rouen was having identical problems with the A 36 form in November 1914.

[charlie962]

On 05/04/2022 at 19:13, TEW said:

spotted the other post regarding the W3034 form

Appologies. I have muddled W3040 and W3034 which became evident to me when I read your misc docs re W3034! Interesting. 

I've edited my earlier post.

Charlie

 

EDIT 

I have now managed to copy Farnworth's W3040 and B103 on to my original post last Friday on Brian's Partial CasList thread. (link as above)

Edited 7 April , 2022 by charlie962

[TEW]

David, your #97 was put up originally as HB 441, it is in fact list HB 411.

TEW

[TEW]

David,

Your #115. The image on page 8 is almost illegible. I found a better copy which shows the list number to be 21902 rather than 21002.

TEW

[David26]

2 hours ago, TEW said:

Your #115. The image on page 8 is almost illegible. I found a better copy which shows the list number to be 21902 rather than 21002.

Thanks TEW! 

[TEW]

Can I ask where a list has dates spanning say five days have you been assigning the earliest, latest or the predominate date?

I have some images of the early partial transcripts, EG. Your #1-#11 which show xx and can supply full dates.

TEW

[David26]

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

Can I ask where a list has dates spanning say five days have you been assigning the earliest, latest or the predominate date?

I have some images of the early partial transcripts, EG. Your #1-#11 which show xx and can supply full dates.

TEW

In those cases, I show the latest date.

David.

[TEW]

David,

Excellent work on version 2.

I've gleaned some scans of transcriptions from page 1 which provide full dates rather than the xx type. I have compared side by side the transcriptions and the images and I have the identical lists, they are not continuation sheets or such. I've gone with the latest date per list.

TEW

[TEW]

Your #39 & #40, these are two separate transcriptions from one image. #39 is Transferred from No. 3 Ambulance Train #40 is Discharged to Convalescent Camp both have the same date and list number 13511.

TEW

[TEW]

David,

Your #303. Has no prefix or number given so far. It is a SWB roll Ancestry image and the full sheet shows the number as 25661, no prefix.

 

Your #331. is an undated list - 13758 Cont. I've seen three service files for men on this list and all three have the date 1915 02 27 in common for transfer to UK via HS St. David. The list number would fit with a date of early March 1915. I'd say the list is describing the transfer to UK events but the list number may actually date to a few days later.

TEW

[TEW]

David,

Not sure how you want to tackle this.

Your #277 is a single image/list 11273 divided into three sections which were transcribed at #44, #47, & #48. Personally I'd say all four entries should have the same blank Prefix, Number & Date.

Suspect it's that Excel autofill thing but #44 was transcribed by stiletto_33853 not SteveE.

TEW

[TEW]

Your #63, transcription does say B 6462 but it is HB 6462, Date is 1917 06 04.

 

HB 7823. [EDIT- Should read 7283] I've checked your #33 and found a SR for 35709 Ford. He has a B 104? that lists the lists he was on. This is not conclusive as it seems to read HB 1283 but the date 1917 08 13 matches the Aug 1917 date in the transcription. Either they did a typo or the 7 has faded to a 1.

TEW

Edited 21 April , 2022 by TEW
Correction

[TEW]

Just noticed that spreadsheet #239 is an illegible copy of #4000. HB 600 1916 07 09.

TEW

[TEW]

Sorry, I keep looking at this group. Column G for #4783 should read the same as G #4782? Or perhaps I've been looking at it too much?

TEW

[TEW]

#39 & #40.

These are transcriptions on page three. List No. is given as 15311. The list number is actually 13511 which has been posted as an image on page 66, not indexed yet.

TEW

[David26]

Thank you so much TEW for all of these!  Based on what you have discovered I have made / propose to make the following changes:

#1, 2, 6, 8, 11 - added in the extra detail on the dates 

#33, #331 - These raise an interesting question - to what extent should we estimate dates based on information not on the casualty lists themselves?  Looking at the sequencing of the list numbers near these, we might expect the date for #33 to be about 1-3 August 1917 and the date for #331 to be about 6-8 March 1915.  I have, so far, held off trying to add in suggested dates for lists where the date is missing.  What do you / others think? 

#39 - corrected the list number

#40 - I propose removing this since it is just part of #39

#44 - corrected the poster

#47, 48 - I propose removing these since they are just part of #44

#63 - corrected the prefix

#239 - removed this since it is a duplicate of #4000

#303 - added in the list number

#4783 - corrected the comment.

  David.

[TEW]

David,

Thanks for the update.

3 hours ago, David26 said:

#33, #331 - These raise an interesting question - to what extent should we estimate dates based on information not on the casualty lists themselves?  Looking at the sequencing of the list numbers near these, we might expect the date for #33 to be about 1-3 August 1917 and the date for #331 to be about 6-8 March 1915.  I have, so far, held off trying to add in suggested dates for lists where the date is missing.  What do you / others think? 

 

I agree it's probably not wise to insert a date for a list when the image does not provide one. Some of the lists run to multiple pages so even when a SR entry mentions and dates the list entry for that individual there may still be a broader date range. The SR I found for Ford on #33 has its own difficulties and those for #331 just produces a speculative date.

Anyone can of course edit their own version if they feel confident and gleaned dates are correct.

TEW

 

[TEW]

Having just looked at HB 7823 (#33). I've noticed that #276 should read HB 7284 not 7824. This reinforces the early Aug date for 7823

#276 is also an original scan of the transcription of HB 7284 #11 IE. these two are identical.

TEW

[TEW]

#4551.

List number 20687 is undated. It's a list of admissions to 9 GH and dated 12th May 1915. As it's a continuation sheet and we only have this sheet it's possible the full list for 20687 covers a date range. This one is not an amendment list.

https://gwfattachments.s3.amazonaws.com/monthly_2022_03/20687.jpg.21ecf7c4583d835f45977f806b6a6a5d.jpg

TEW

[TEW]

List no. H 7391.

There are four spreadsheet entries; #549, #1526, #2735 & #4553.

#1526 & #4553 are identical sheets. #1526 also has unid for prefix and number but #4553 is a better copy and shows the list number. The other two H 7391 sheets are different again.

https://gwfattachments.s3.amazonaws.com/monthly_2021_12/511051239_dun47543.jpg.6fee633a6a394ae3380c3712a2af9107.jpg

https://gwfattachments.s3.amazonaws.com/monthly_2022_03/2068907287_H7391.jpg.96489a5d60d4c906b3ee74481bec5ab8.jpg

TEW