Help with a cap badge and uniform

[Russ Platt]

The record I looked at had him as being born in Bow in the East End.....

[The Inspector]

Hi Russ

From my experience family history is frequently incorrect....still looking

Regards Barry

[headgardener]

15 minutes ago, Russ Platt said:

However, we do know that our chap was a solider from 1906 even if the photo was as late as 1918. Tomas Harper is listed as a farm labourer. Unless our chap re-enlisted and the stripes showed total rather than continuous service?

 

Just to add a note about the likely date of the photo...... He's wearing a standard SD jacket as introduced in 1902, but he's also wearing a standard (i.e. non-regimental pattern) Slade Wallace belt which became obsolete in 1908. You do see photos of men wearing them in the very early days of WW1 when new kit was in short supply, but the photo in the OP is unlikely to date from much later than late-1914/early-15 and could date from much earlier - which is of relevance to his 12 years GC stripes. 

Personally, I'd say say the photo looks about right for 1914, suggesting that his service may have started in 1902. He looks a bit like a reservist imho. 

Edited 30 July , 2020 by headgardener

[PRC]

15 minutes ago, Russ Platt said:

My memory is that he was Alice’s uncle rather than brother. However this was a one-time conversation with my grandmother 50 years ago when I was seven.......

 

Just to clear off the Pearce family side and possibly chuck another name in the mix.

 

Your great grandparents only appear to have married in 1894 and even by the 1911 Census of England & Wales when they state they have had four children, all then still alive all bar one were still living with them, and they have helpfully provided the name of the fourth before crossing it through – presumably not at home on the night of the census. There is no Tom \ Thomas amongst them. Unless I’m mistaken, your grandmothers siblings would be your great uncles and aunts. Given the apparent age of the man in the picture and potentially having seen a bit of service, is it not possible it is in fact her uncle you have a picture of – your great, great uncle.

 

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales the 29 year old Frederick Pearce, born East Kennett, Wiltshire, was recorded as the married head of the household at 30 Western Street, Swindon. He was a Machinist with the Great Western Railway. He lives there with wife Emily L., (aged 30, born Wootton Bassett, Wiltshire) and three children, including the 2 year old Alice M.M., born Swindon. Also in the household is Fredericks’ unmarried sister Edith, (aged 21, General Domestic Servant, born Berwick Bassett).

 

Heading back to the 1891 Census of England & Wales, the 19 year old Frederick, an Agricultural Labourer, born East Kennett, was living at 125 Monkton Road, Berwick Bassett, Wiltshire. This was the household of his parents, Richard, (aged 49, Ag.Lab., born East Kennett) and Elizabeth, (49, born Biddestone, Wiltshire). As well as daughter Edith, (11), the couple have another son “Walter JNO”, aged 16, born East Kennett.

 

Could we be looking for a John instead of a Tom?

 

Children on the 1881 Census are:-

Frederick, aged 9, born Kennett, Wiltshire

Walter J., aged 6, born Kennett, Wiltshire

Mary A., aged 4, born Berwick Bassett, Wiltshire

Edith, aged 1, born Berwick Bassett.

 

The birth of a Walter John Pearce, mothers’ maiden name Tavener, was recorded in the Marlborough District of Wiltshire in Q2 of 1874.

 

I couldn’t find Walter on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, and no likely match in the death records for those countries since the last census was taken. One possible explanation was that he was serving in the Army in Ireland – but there are many other explanations. There are no Pearces or Harpers on the War Memorial at Winterbourne Monkton.

http://www.oodwooc.co.uk/ph_wintermonk_in.htm

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 30 July , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[Russ Platt]

Hi Peter

 

Thank you for your efforts on this.

 

All things are possible. It is slightly concerning that Dad has referred to him as Tom. In researching my tree quite often familiar names seem to be missing from the official record. Nicknames, unrecorded middle names etc.

 

I just wonder if there were two people in this story. My memory of an uncle dying on the way back from Turkey and my Dad’s record of Tom Pearce on the back of the photo. My grandfather, Alice’s husband served in Egypt and her three eldest sons (incl my Dad) in WW2. This chap would be the only casualty that I am aware of.

 

Russ

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

You mentioned he was a Cockney..

Thomas William Harper's CWGC entry :

Son of Mr. and Sarah Jane Harper, of 50, Sutherland Rd., Bow, London.

 

Do the parents fit anywhere into your family tree?

Edited 30 July , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Russ Platt]

24 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Just to add a note about the likely date of the photo...... He's wearing a standard SD jacket as introduced in 1902, but he's also wearing a standard (i.e. non-regimental pattern) Slade Wallace belt which became obsolete in 1908. You do see photos of men wearing them in the very early days of WW1 when new kit was in short supply, but the photo in the OP is unlikely to date from much later than late-1914/early-15 and could date from much earlier - which is of relevance to his 12 years GC stripes. 

Personally, I'd say say the photo looks about right for 1914, suggesting that his service may have started in 1902. He looks a bit like a reservist imho. 

 

Fascinating. I did not suspect that the uniform would yield so much.  Thank you for this.

 

He does looks rather old to be shipping out to the eastern med.

 

Is it unusual that he has 12 years of service and no medal ribbons? Or perhaps would they not be worn with this uniform?

 

I assume that it is one stripe for each completed 4 year period. So potentially pushing him back to 15 years service and into the Boer war?

 

Russ

[Russ Platt]

Just now, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

You mentioned he was a Cockney..

Thomas William Harper's CWGC entry :

Son of Mr. and Sarah Jane Harper, of 50, Sutherland Rd., Bow, London.

Hi Dai

 

Yes - we are chasing one-another. If Thomas Harper is a cockney then he is certainly not my Wiltshire born relative.

[Russ Platt]

39 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Your great uncle would be your grandmother's brother.

So are you saying he might be your great great uncle?

Yes - my mistake. My great great uncle.

[headgardener]

5 minutes ago, Russ Platt said:

 

Fascinating. I did not suspect that the uniform would yield so much.  Thank you for this.

 

He does looks rather old to be shipping out to the eastern med.

 

Is it unusual that he has 12 years of service and no medal ribbons? Or perhaps would they not be worn with this uniform?

 

I assume that it is one stripe for each completed 4 year period. So potentially pushing him back to 15 years service and into the Boer war?

If he had medals it's almost certain that he'd be wearing the ribbons.

Yes, one stripe for each 4 years service without falling foul of the military authoritaties (hence 'good conduct' chevrons). So this man had a MINIMUM of 12 years uninterrupted service. 

If this photo was taken in 1914 then the man in question must have been a serving soldier in either the 1901 or 1911 census, or possibly both. I'd say that he looks like a slightly out-of-shape reservist who was recalled to join his regiment at the outbreak of war, at which point this photo was taken. 

[FROGSMILE]

I agree that he has the look of a reservist but 12-years good conduct doesn’t sit with that comfortably.  A soldier didn’t earn GCBs on the reserve, so at the time of the photo he had completed at least 12-years of regular service and, although in theory that could be a total collected either side of a break in service, it seems unlikely given that his first period would have had to have been 7-years, then a break, followed by another 5.  
 

On balance then, I think it’s more likely that he’s an old soldier type, employed somewhere like the QM’s stores, who’s never served on operations.  An examination of 1st and 2nd Battalion RDF movement’s might suggest a series of stations that sketch out a potential career to fit with that.

 

Afternote:  Continuous service with the 1st Battalion followed by a posting to the regimental depot (or remaining with rear party to look after families, etc.) at the time of the 2nd Boer War would have seen him with no medals at all.

Edited 31 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

Next up, your great grandmothers side.

 

Emily Louisa Pearce, born Wootton Bassett, Wiltshire was aged 39 on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, and 30 on the 1901 Census of England & Wales.

 

The marriage of a Frederick Pearce to an Emily Louisa Harper was recorded in the Highworth District of Wiltshire in Q3 1894.

 

On the 1891 Census of England & Wales there is a 20 year old Emily L. Harper, a live in Domestic Cook, who was recorded Corsham School, Pickwick Street (South), Corsham, Wiltshire. Her place of birth is given as “Not Known”.

 

The 1881 Census of England & Wales is where it starts to get messy. There is a 10 year old Louisa E. Harper,(born Longledge, Chippenham), recorded at No.8 Doves Street, Swindon. Other children in the household are Edward T(?), (aged 15, Servant Boy, born Walworth, Surrey) and Ellen, (aged 6, born Wootton Bassett). And then the fun starts. Edwards’ relationship to the head of the family is given as son in law, while those of the two girls is shown as daughter in law. The householder is Rowland Bartlett, a Bootmaker born Heytesbury, Wiltshire. A married man, his wife is Maryann Bartlett, aged 36, born Wootton Bassett.

 

On the 1871 Census of England & Wales there is a 2 month old Emily Harper, born Purton, Wiltshire, recorded at Tossels Cottage, Calne, Wiltshire. Her relationship to the head of the household  is simply given as infant, not “Daur” as used elsewhere on the page. The married couple she is living with are a Henry, (38) and Harriet Norman, (33). There is just the three of them in this household. This child may not relate to Emily Louisa.

 

There is however no obvious match for an Emily Louisa in the Civil Birth records for Wiltshire in approximately the right time. However until the penatlies for non-registration were increased and expanded in 1872, it is likely a number of births went unrecorded. Similarly I can’t find a likely birth for Edward.

 

A Rowland Bartlett married a Mary Ann Harper in the Highworth District of Wiltshire in Q1 of 1878. I can’t find Mary Ann on the 1871 Census so can’t work out what name the older children might have had at birth.

 

So for now my best guess is that the 15 year old Edward, possibly middle initial “T” on the 1881 Census as born Walworth, Surrey would grow up to be the 45 year old Tomas Edward, born “Waldsworth", Surrey, who would be recorded as a Boarder living with Frederick and Emily Pearce on the 1911 Census of England & Wales.

 

The long gap between appearances in the Census may indicate he was serving in the Army – or it may be he reverted to his birthname. Which raises the spectre that was the name he was known as to the Army.

 

If that is correct then he is both part of your Wiltshire heritage and close-ish to being a Cockney - if it wasn’t on the wrong side of the river.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 30 July , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[Russ Platt]

Hi Peter

 

Wow. Thank you again. A lot of work and a very late night!

 

My partner’s family is from Bow and she has long instilled in me that the East End is strictly north of the river! I have another family line from Rotherhithe and also.......Walworth. Only linked by marriage tho’.

 

Facts?

 

My head is spinning with all this. I started with a photo of annotated by Alice’s son, my dad, as a ”Tom Pearce” from deepest Wiltshire. Clearly the man in the photo is an older professional solder of long service. He wears an outdated uniform of the RDF.

 

I have linked the memory of my grandmother giving me a photo of a relative of hers (prob. an uncle) who did not return from active service. 

 

One avenue would be to confirm my dad’s annotation that a Tom Pearce was from Winterborne Monkton nr. Avebury. 

 

How did we switch from Pearce to Harper?

 

Because we had a record of a deceased Tom Harper who served with the RDF - killed in France. We seem to be looking at a south London Tom Harper now rather than the Bow (hence my reference to a cockney) born Tom Harper killed in France with the RDF.

 

Who is the fellow in the photo?

 

Could the uniform be misleading? Could it be that when our old soldier re-enlisted he joined a more local regiment and did not die with the RDF but with another regiment? Thus you may be correct about the surname Harper but we have jumped to the Bow Harper because the name fitted with the regiment and he was killed in France?

 

But how to find a deceased Tom Harper/Pearce who had served in the RDF and died? Would a re-enlisting man have a record within the WWI short service records?

 

As I said - my head is spinning.....

 

 

 

Other ”old soldier” family memories. I have two more from dad.

 

Firstly, at the beginning of WWII, and before enlisting, dad joined the Home Guard within the GWR in Swindon. He had an uncle in the unit. I do not know which uncle. Secondly, also in the unit was a fellow who had fought at Omdurman. Pretty sure they were separate men but intriguing and very Dad’s Army!

 

[FROGSMILE]

Something worth just keeping at the back of the mind is that the RDF was disbanded in 1922, and all those (surviving) soldiers who had signed for 21-years (and thus a pension) were given the opportunity to either, transfer to another regiment, or see out their remaining service in an extra regimental employment (ERE) post at a depot, a headquarters, or other training establishment.

Edited 31 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[The Inspector]

Hi All

10 hours ago, PRC said:

 

A Rowland Bartlett married a Mary Ann Harper in the Highworth District of Wiltshire in Q1 of 1878. I can’t find Mary Ann on the 1871 Census so can’t work out what name the older children might have had at birth.

 

So for now my best guess is that the 15 year old Edward, possibly middle initial “T” on the 1881 Census as born Walworth, Surrey would grow up to be the 45 year old Tomas Edward, born “Waldsworth", Surrey, who would be recorded as a Boarder living with Frederick and Emily Pearce on the 1911 Census of England & Wales.

 

The long gap between appearances in the Census may indicate he was serving in the Army – or it may be he reverted to his birthname. Which raises the spectre that was the name he was known as to the Army.

 

If that is correct then he is both part of your Wiltshire heritage and close-ish to being a Cockney - if it wasn’t on the wrong side of the river.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Regarding the marriage of Mary Ann Harper and Rowland Barrett...the 1911 census shows married 34 years and no children (name Bartlett). Hence the reference on the 1881 census to Edward "T" Harper being "son in law".  I wouldn't discount him as being the man we are looking for as he ends up with the Pearce family in 1911....still looking, searching the family...

Ellen Harper 1881 census, 6yrs, b.1875,  baptised 8th Jan. 1875 Wootton Bassett, mother Mary |Ann Harper, baptism record shows her as a "single woman"..

Peter, The 1881 census with Louisa E Harper (Emily Louisa Harper) sister to the above Ellen, brother to Edward T and Russ's great grandmother shows them at 3 DOVER St., still searching....

The marriage cert. for Frederick Pearce and Emily Louisa Harper (No. 259 of the register of St.Paul's, New Swindon, 19th July, 1894) shows Emily's father as deceased but no christian name just a line then Harper. She was living at No. 6 DOVER ST. and Frederick at 34 Western St.,Swindon. Frederick's father Richard, a labourer.........

Regards Barry

Edited 31 July , 2020 by The Inspector

[headgardener]

39 minutes ago, Russ Platt said:

Clearly the man in the photo is an older professional solder of long service. He wears an outdated uniform of the RDF.

 

Could the uniform be misleading? Could it be that when our old soldier re-enlisted he joined a more local regiment and did not die with the RDF but with another regiment?

 

 

Russ

Yes, the man in the photo was - or had previously been - a professional soldier with a minimum of 12 years service.

No, his uniform isn't 'outdated'. His belt was part of a set of equipment that became obsolete in 1908. This could indicate that the photo dates from 1908 or earlier, or from the very early days of WW1 when equipment was in short supply and old obsolete kit was pressed into use. 

Therefore his 12 years service is likely to have started sometime between about 1896 and about 1902.

EDIT: I'd say the photo looks about right for 1914 rather than 1908.

Edited 31 July , 2020 by headgardener

[seaJane]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

son in law, while those of the two girls is shown as daughter in law

It was still the case in the 19th century that son- and daughter-in-law might be used of the relationship which we would now call step-son and step-daughter - I don't know if that fits in this case?

[headgardener]

p.s. to my comments above.... 

Considering his likely dates of service, he must have been a professional soldier at the time of the 1901 census and - depending on the date he enlisted - he is likely to have been a professional soldier at the time of the 1911 census. 

[FROGSMILE]

The ‘whangee cane’ type of swagger stick that he clutches in his hand is significant.  It is a type used by battalions based in India and the Far East, as it had a cheap and indigenous source of supply.  The 1st Battalion RDF was in Ceylon when formed from the 102nd Foot.  It moved back to the UK in 1886, being based in England, before moving to the Curragh in Ireland. It returned to England in 1893, remaining there until the Second Boer War began in South Africa in 1899.

Edited 31 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Michelle Young]

There's a Thomas William Harper 9th RDF died 8/8/17 aged 33 came from Sutherland Rd Bow 

[headgardener]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The whangee cane type swagger stick that he clutches in his hand is significant.  It is a type used by battalions based in India and the Far East, as it had a cheap and indigenous source of supply.  The 1st Battalion RDF was in Ceylon when formed from the 102nd Foot.  It moved back to the UK in 1886, being based in England, before moving to the Curragh in Ireland. It returned to England in 1893, remaining there until the Second Boer War began in South Africa in 1899.

 

Would service in Ceylon warrant a campaign medal? 

 

7 minutes ago, Michelle Young said:

There's a Thomas William Harper 9th RDF died 8/8/17 aged 33 came from Sutherland Rd Bow 

 

Can't be him as the man in the photo had a minimum of 12 years adult service by about 1914.

EDIT: actually, I suppose it is just possible for it to be him if his service started in 1902, but in that case the man in the photo would have to be 30, which s seems unlikely

Edited 31 July , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

Looking at the ear lobes and the eye pits of the man in the OP photo I’d say he was older than 33 and if still serving in 1914 must have enlisted in the mid 1890s as mentioned above.

 

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

 

Would service in Ceylon warrant a campaign medal? 

 

 

Can't be him as the man in the photo had a minimum of 12 years adult service by about 1914.

He’s too young to have served in Ceylon, but my point is that that type of cane was probably procured there and still being used years later as a feature of 1st Battalion dress.  There was a war in Burma around that period for which medals were awarded, but as I mentioned, he is too young.  The 2nd Battalion were the foreign service unit with opportunities for medals. If he had stayed with the rear party of 1 RDF during the Boer War he could have easily completed 12-years service without leaving the shores of Britain and Ireland.  That would be my bet.

Edited 31 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[The Inspector]

2 hours ago, The Inspector said:

Hi All

Regarding the marriage of Mary Ann Harper and Rowland Barrett...the 1911 census shows married 34 years and no children (name Bartlett). Hence the reference on the 1881 census to Edward "T" Harper being "son in law".  I wouldn't discount him as being the man we are looking for as he ends up with the Pearce family in 1911....still looking, searching the family...

Ellen Harper 1881 census, 6yrs, b.1875,  baptised 8th Jan. 1875 Wootton Bassett, mother Mary |Ann Harper, baptism record shows her as a "single woman"..

Peter, The 1881 census with Louisa E Harper (Emily Louisa Harper) sister to the above Ellen, brother to Edward T and Russ's great grandmother shows them at 3 DOVER St., still searching....

The marriage cert. for Frederick Pearce and Emily Louisa Harper (No. 259 of the register of St.Paul's, New Swindon, 19th July, 1894) shows Emily's father as deceased but no christian name just a line then Harper. She was living at No. 6 DOVER ST. and Frederick at 34 Western St.,Swindon. Frederick's father Richard, a labourer.........

Regards Barry

Hi All,

Getting lost on this one...update

Russ I see from your tree that you already know all this!

Regards Barry

[Russ Platt]

2 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

Russ

Yes, the man in the photo was - or had previously been - a professional soldier with a minimum of 12 years service.

No, his uniform isn't 'outdated'. His belt was part of a set of equipment that became obsolete in 1908. This could indicate that the photo dates from 1908 or earlier, or from the very early days of WW1 when equipment was in short supply and old obsolete kit was pressed into use. 

Therefore his 12 years service is likely to have started sometime between about 1896 and about 1902.

EDIT: I'd say the photo looks about right for 1914 rather than 1908.

 

Hi Headgardener.

 

I think we agree - outdated and obsolete but still in use if the photo was from 1914.

 

I have checked the dates of the photographer. He was yet another GWR man and lost part of his leg in a loco repair shop accident. Fitted with a wooden leg he took to commercial photography. He started in 1903 and moved to the Cromwell Street premises in 1906 where the photograph was subsequently taken. 

 

So not terribly helpful but absolute confirmation that the photograph was not before 1906. Somewhere in Swindon is an archive of his photographs where that background and bench would appear from. I suspect that a whole generation of recruits sat on same - perhaps even my grandfather Albert Platt.

 (5th Beds).

 

Kind regards

 

Russ

[Russ Platt]

16 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

Hi All,

Getting lost on this one...update

Russ I see from your tree that you already know all this!

Regards Barry

Thanks anyway Barry! 

Russ