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Russ Platt

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32 minutes ago, Russ Platt said:

 

Hi Headgardener.

 

I think we agree - outdated and obsolete but still in use if the photo was from 1914.

 

I have checked the dates of the photographer. He was yet another GWR man and lost part of his leg in a loco repair shop accident. Fitted with a wooden leg he took to commercial photography. He started in 1903 and moved to the Cromwell Street premises in 1906 where the photograph was subsequently taken. 

 

So not terribly helpful but absolute confirmation that the photograph was not before 1906. Somewhere in Swindon is an archive of his photographs where that background and bench would appear from. I suspect that a whole generation of recruits sat on same - perhaps even my grandfather Albert Platt.

 (5th Beds).

 

Kind regards

 

Russ


I hadn’t spotted the Swindon studio reference.  I’ve looked to see if any battalions of the RDF were ever nearby, but the only ones ever remotely close were the 6th and 7th (Service) Battalions RDF, that were both at Basingstoke (perhaps a train journey away?) between May and June 1915.  Both units then embarked for Salonika. If he was with them perhaps he’d taken the last opportunity for a family visit and had his photo taken as a keepsake. However, I realise that all this is mere speculation, albeit that he had to be at Swindon for a reason.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Salonika! I mentioned above that my memory is of Tom dying in Greece on the way home from the front. Perhaps we are homing in?

 

Unfortunately I could not find anything on the CWGC site......

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Russ Platt said:

Salonika! I mentioned above that my memory is of Tom dying in Greece on the way home from the front. Perhaps we are homing in?

 

Unfortunately I could not find anything on the CWGC site......

 

 

 

 


Yes, the 6th and 7th are the two battalions that fought and suffered high rates of disease in that theatre of the war.  It’s easy to imagine an old regular soldier being useful with the administration and logistics of a war-raised battalion of citizen soldiers, which is precisely what the Service Battalions were.  Tracing the death (if he indeed died) shouldn’t be difficult once you know accurately what the name was, but I understand that there lies the rub!

Edited by FROGSMILE
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5 hours ago, The Inspector said:

 

Regarding the marriage of Mary Ann Harper and Rowland Barrett...the 1911 census shows married 34 years and no children (name Bartlett). Hence the reference on the 1881 census to Edward "T" Harper being "son in law".  I wouldn't discount him as being the man we are looking for as he ends up with the Pearce family .......

How can Mary and Rowland have a son in law if they didn’t have any children? 
Maybe Edward was a stepson and incorrectly listed. 

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44 minutes ago, Myrtle said:

How can Mary and Rowland have a son in law if they didn’t have any children? 
Maybe Edward was a stepson and incorrectly listed. 

 

Probable answer in post 42.

 

6 hours ago, seaJane said:

It was still the case in the 19th century that son- and daughter-in-law might be used of the relationship which we would now call step-son and step-daughter - I don't know if that fits in this case?

 

Cheers,

Peter

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19 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Probable answer in post 42.

 

 

Cheers,

Peter

Thanks Peter

You have saved me going through all those posts. I agree with Sea Jane as I’ve also come across this type of listing  before.   

 

 

 

 

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I’ve looked through all the Pearce’s who are listed in the MIC’s as having served at one time with the RDF, and cross checked with CWGC. There are 11, of whom 4 are commemorated by CWGC. Unfortunately none have any family details or age listed. In case someone can check SDGW or whatever, they are as follows:

Henry R Pearce, 18455, missing 21 March 1918

Albert Pearce, didn’t make a note of the number, also missing 21 March 1918

William G Pearce, 29159, died Nov 1918

Robert Pearce, 9328, killed at Gallipoli Apr 1915

 

There are also MIC’s for:

Edward J Pearce, 29815

Albert E Pearce, 18456, transferred to Labour Corps

William Hugh Pearce, 2/Lt

Rupert S Pearce, has 2 separate numbers for RDF, also served with R Ir Rgt 

RJF Pearce, Lt

Percy Pearce, transferred to Yorks R

Nicholas Pearce, 21112

 

I'll trawl through the Harper’s later, just in case.

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Hi headgardner

 

Great stuff! 

 

I just had a look at the National Archives listing. They have a Thomas W Harper listed as serving in the RDF and also the Bedfordshire regiment. Perhaps just a coincidence but Alice’s husband, my grandfather served in Eqypt with the 5th Bedfordshire’s. 

Edited by Russ Platt
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Have now checked the Harper’s. Those on CWGC are as follows:

Arthur E Harper, 11118, kia 27 Aug 1914 (medal entitlement split over 2 MIC’s with slightly different No.’s)

Nicholas Harper, 18181 (from Co. Wexford)

Francis or Frank Leitch Harper, CSM, died in Greece aged 27

Thomas W Harper, originally in Beds Rgt then transferred to RDF 40480, died aged 33

 

The others are:

George Harper, 28705

G Harper, 30094, transferred to Lab C

G Harper, 4947, 14 star, discharged.

 

Edited by headgardener
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6 minutes ago, Russ Platt said:

just had a look at the National Archives listing. They have a Thomas W Harper listed as serving in the RDF and also the Bedfordshire regiment. Perhaps just a coincidence but Alice’s husband, my grandfather served in Eqypt with the 5th Bedfordshire’s. 

 

Its not him - according to CWGC he was 33 when he died (see my list above)

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1 hour ago, headgardener said:

Henry R Pearce, 18455, missing 21 March 1918

Albert Pearce, didn’t make a note of the number, also missing 21 March 1918

William G Pearce, 29159, died Nov 1918

Robert Pearce, 9328, killed at Gallipoli Apr 1915

 

SDGW,

 

18455 Henry Richard Pearce, KiA, born Hammersmith, Middx, resident Shepherds Bush, enlisted London.

24163 Albert Pearce, KiA, born Maeynllarth, North Wales, enlisted Cardiff ex 15875 D.C.L.I.

29159 William George Pearce, KiA, born Alverstoke, Hants, resident Brockhurst, enlisted Portsmouth.

9328 Robert Edward Pearce, KiA, born & resident Poplar, Middx, enlisted Woolwich.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited by PRC
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What is the general feeling regarding a probable age for the man in the OP photo?  I’d say around 40, but I’m conscious that moustaches can be deceiving and men generally aged more quickly at that time for a range of sociological and health reasons.  If he were around that age then we’d be looking for a man in his late 20s when he enlisted.  I don’t know if that might help in pinning him down.

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30 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

What is the general feeling regarding a probable age for the man in the OP photo?  I’d say around 40

They looked older in those days.

Hard to give an exact estimate, I would suggest a wide range, from early 30s to mid 40s.

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2 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

They looked older in those days.

Hard to give an exact estimate, I would suggest a wide range, from early 30s to mid 40s.

 
Yes, it’s a tough one, but the growth of his ear lobes and the beginnings of bags under his eyes suggested the older end to me. He also appears to have some grey in his moustache, so all those factors together...but I agree it’s difficult to be sure.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I agree - he is difficult to age.

 

He looks fairly "well fed" to me. Thinking of such guys that I know they tend not to have many wrinkles and can look younger than they are. That said, I think that we have likely established that he had service of 12-15 years service in 1914. So his youngest possible age in 1914 would be the minimum enlistment age in 1902 plus 12. Was that 18?

 

So could the chap in the photograph possibly be 18+ 12 to 15 i.e 30 to 32??? Possibly.......

 

Just on the service stripes - an unanswered question. There have been some comments that he might have been a reservist prior to 1914. If he was a regular for some years and then a reservist for a period would the accrual of service only count for the "regular" years (and not the reservist years)? If he left regular service as late as 1908 (when elements of his uniform became obsolete) then he would be a minimum of 36-38. Very possible.......

 

Russ

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57 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

What is the general feeling regarding a probable age for the man in the OP photo?  I’d say around 40, but I’m conscious that moustaches can be deceiving and men generally aged more quickly at that time for a range of sociological and health reasons.  If he were around that age then we’d be looking for a man in his late 20s when he enlisted.  I don’t know if that might help in pinning him down.

 

Yes, 40-ish is a good vague estimate. So, judging by appearances, if the photo was taken in about 1914 then he’d have been born around 1884 (+/- a few years either side).

Working backwards from what we know about the photo, We’re looking at a likely enlistment date of no later than 1903 (to allow for 12 years GC). Assuming his service was uninterrupted at the time the photo was taken he couldn’t have enlisted any earlier than 1899, otherwise he’d have 4 GC chevrons. If he joined up around the age of 17-21 then we’d be looking at a likely d.o.b. of about 1878/79 up to 1884 and therefore a likely age of about 40 to 46 when the photo was taken. Which matches his appearance in the photo.

Just wondering - Was a 4th GC chevron awarded after ‘only’ 14 years? In which case we could narrow the window by a further 2 years (d.o.b. of about 1880 - 84).

So we’re probably looking for someone on the family tree born between about 1878 and 1884, or possibly 1880 and 1884 (depending on GC chevrons). At least, that’s not a bad place to start.

Edited by headgardener
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1 hour ago, headgardener said:

Have now checked the Harper’s. Those on CWGC are as follows:

Arthur E Harper, 11118, kia 27 Aug 1914 (medal entitlement split over 2 MIC’s with slightly different No.’s)

Nicholas Harper, 18181 (from Co. Wexford)

Francis or Frank Leitch Harper, CSM, died in Greece aged 27

Thomas W Harper, originally in Beds Rgt then transferred to RDF 40480, died aged 33

 

Struggled to find Arthur E Harper, so tried different search criteria.

National Archive MiC search “Arthur Harper, Dublin Fusiliers” returns only one match = 11188 Arthur, no middle initial.

SDGW search criteria “11188”. Match returned for Royal Dublin Fusiliers was Arthur William Harker, KiA, born West Bromwich, Stafford and enlisted Birmingham.

SDGW also a problem for 18181 Nicholas Harper – their entry for “18181” serving in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers is Nicholas Harpur, KiA. Born and resident Wexford, enlisted Haverfordwest.

14767 Francis Leith Harper, KiA. Born and resident Belfast, enlisted Dublin.

40480 Thomas William Harper, KiA. Born Whitechapel, Middx., resident Bow, Middx., and enlisted Poplar, Middx.

 

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

What is the general feeling regarding a probable age for the man in the OP photo?

 

As to age, from the genealogy side there appears to be two candidates who were uncles of Russ’ grandmother.

 

Strongest is Edward T., \ Tomas Edward Harper, born circa 1865, and who seems to disappear from the Census record after 1881 and doesn’t reappear until 1911 – more than enough time to get the years in that the gentleman photographed appears to have. If we are dating the picture to approximately 1914, then he would be approx. 49.

 

More of a back-up, particularly as the possibility has begun to open up that the family story may have conflated two individuals, is a Walter Jonathan Pearce, birth registered Q2 1874. Walter disappears after the 1901 Census. Then aged 27, it’s a bit old for a first time recruit but not one who re-enlisted. That would make him aged circa 40 if the picture was taken early in the war.

 

There may be additional candidates on the Ancestry tree, but unfortunately I don’t have access.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited by PRC
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Hi All

Good conduct stripes here....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Conduct_stripe#:~:text=The Good-Conduct stripe was,sleeve of the uniform jacket.

Regards Barry

3 hours ago, headgardener said:

Just wondering - Was a 4th GC chevron awarded after ‘only’ 14 years? In which case we could narrow the window by a further 2 years (d.o.b. of about 1880 - 84).

So we’re probably looking for someone on the family tree born between about 1878 and 1884, or possibly 1880 and 1884 (depending on GC chevrons). At least, that’s not a bad place to start.

Regards Barry

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4 hours ago, Russ Platt said:

 

 

Just on the service stripes - an unanswered question. There have been some comments that he might have been a reservist prior to 1914. If he was a regular for some years and then a reservist for a period would the accrual of service only count for the "regular" years (and not the reservist years)?

 

Russ


Years on the reserve did not count towards GCB.  GCB were to encourage and visibly recognise good behaviour, whilst undergoing a life of restricted liberty in disciplined military service.  It’s important to remember that.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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23 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

You mentioned he was a Cockney..

Thomas William Harper's CWGC entry :

Son of Mr. and Sarah Jane Harper, of 50, Sutherland Rd., Bow, London.

 

Do the parents fit anywhere into your family tree?

Hi All

Just to fill in on 40480 RDF, here is a family tree but no further info.   https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/65267210/person/30137845520/facts

Regards Barry

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Jesse Gubbins 1878-1918?

 

Going back to one of the original clues. Alice described the soldier in the photo as her uncle. I assumed that he was a Pearce, However, he could also have married one of Alice’s aunts. I have looked through them.

 

Jesse Gubbins is already in my tree. Married to Edith Pearce, Alice’s aunt. The tree lists him as dying in Salonika in 1918 but does not have a source.

 

There are military records of that name and possibly a reference to the Miltary Medal. However what I have seen does not reference the RDF and from the gratuity to his widow assumes that he commenced service in 1914.

 

All decyphering of the code welcomed!

 

Russ

38011E27-32D4-4118-97B5-F0AF16673A6F.png

Edited by Russ Platt
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Jesse Gubbin’s MIC has him going to France in Sept 1915 with 7th Battalion Ox & Bucks Light Infantry and presumably serving with them throughout up to his death. Initially he was a Corporal when the battalion went to France, then a Sergeant at the time of being awarded the MM (Nov 1916), and ultimately CAMS (Company Quarter Master Sergeant).

He would have been 35 or 36 in 1914.

If his service papers don’t indicate previous service with RDF then this fact plus his apparent age would suggest that he isn’t the man in the photo.

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I agree. I do not think that Jesse is the man in the photo.

 

I do think however, that Jesse is the man in my grandmother's story i.e. the uncle who served and died in Greece. I suspect that 50 years ago she gave me a different photo - a photo of Jesse - and that I have incorrectly concantenated the narrative. I have been searching for the photograph she gave me for years - would I recognise it now? I will try to find a photo of Jesse Gubbin - with luck the Swindon Evening Advertiser might have published his photo upon his death. I am sure I remember facial hair. Perhaps fitting for a CQMS.

 

Meanwhile, who is the man in the photo described as "Tom Pearce of Winterbourne Monkton, Avebury, Wilts. Killed in Action in 1st WW"?

Edited by Russ Platt
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52 minutes ago, Russ Platt said:

I agree. I do not think that Jesse is the man in the photo.

 

I do think however, that Jesse is the man in my grandmother's story i.e. the uncle who served and died in Greece. I suspect that 50 years ago she gave me a different photo - a photo of Jesse - and that I have incorrectly concantenated the narrative. I have been searching for the photograph she gave me for years - would I recognise it now? I will try to find a photo of Jesse Gubbin - with luck the Swindon Evening Advertiser might have published his photo upon his death. I am sure I remember facial hair. Perhaps fitting for a CQMS.

 

Meanwhile, who is the man in the photo described as "Tom Pearce of Winterbourne Monkton, Avebury, Wilts. Killed in Action in 1st WW"?

 

If Tom Pearce was indeed a casualty, would he not be on the local war memorial, have you been able to check?  Wiltshire was generally very good for honouring its war dead.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Already confirmed there are no Pearce's on the Winterbourne Monkton War Memorial.

 

Swindon keeps cropping up in connection with this extended family. As far as I can see there are no names on the main Swindon Civic Memorial, but there is also a memorial board in the Regents Circus. At maximum picture size on Flickr it's possible to make out the names on a picture of the board put up by Swindon Library. J. Gubbins is there but no T. Pearce \ Pearse \ Pierce.

2009: Borough of Swindon Great War Memorial in Regent Circus

Courtesy Flickr - restricted rights on reproduction.

 

Neither man are on the Great Western Railways War Memorial.

 

 

1914-1918: GWR 'A' Erecting Shop War Memorial, Swindon (Postcard)

Courtesy Flickr - restricted rights on reproduction.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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