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Russ Platt

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Thanks for checking this. I agree Wiltshire and in particular Swindon and both the GWR Company and also the men of the workshops were very good at honouring the fallen. 
 

If a man went off to the war from a village or workplace and did not return then I would fully expect their name to be memorialised. In this case though we are looking at a professional soldier who left to serve at least 12-15 years before the start of the war. Was he any longer “from” anywhere?
 

There is a Wiltshire Soldiers website which I have contacted - no reply yet. Appears to have lots of photos. Does anyone have access? There seemed to be a problem with the new user registration.

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It’s true that some men could be lost in the fog of war and get missed off the local memorial, but most villages were very good and in principle it didn’t matter if he was a regular who had long before left home, he should still be recorded upon his village memorial in whatever form that takes.

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1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s true that some men could be lost in the fog of war and get missed off the local memorial, but most villages were very good and in principle it didn’t matter if he was a regular who had long before left home, he should still be recorded upon his village memorial in whatever form that takes.

 

These were private initiatives, so there had to be someone there to nominate the deceased serviceperson for inclusion. This can lead to the most exhausting to discover inclusions coupled with the "but why didn't they include them" moments. I also wonder sometimes if money was involved. If nominating someone led to a request for a 'voluntary' donation, then some families might have had to work out where best to remember their fallen loved one - a village memorial where they grew up but from which the family had moved on and were not likely to regularly return, or a local church \ town near to where they had moved, even post-war, where they could see the name on a regular basis. And that's of course assuming the memorial has survived.

 

Norwich for example had 10+ churches gutted during WW2 air-raids, while others were removed for post-war civic improvements and the memorials have been lost, while sadly a number of Norfolk churches have been lost to fires over the last century or condemned as unsafe and the fittings stripped out, while non-conformist branches of Christianity have folded or moved to more practicable buildings without taking the memorials - and I can't believe these scenario's are unique to Norfolk. Fortunately there is a publication from the 1920's that states it lists every name on every war memorial newly unveiled in Norfolk, but even then I have come across a number of examples that were missed.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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That’s very interesting Peter.  When I was still a young lad, my father used to take me in the local church, at whatever place we visited, almost as a kind of ritual homage, and we would dutifully look at all the names together with their units (if the latter were mentioned).  Your point about what has happened to so many churches since WW1 is well made.  My intent really was to suggest that the OP at least check out that line of inquiry, as hitherto it was an aspect that had not been mentioned in the thread at all.

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3 hours ago, Russ Platt said:

I agree. I do not think that Jesse is the man in the photo.

 

I do think however, that Jesse is the man in my grandmother's story i.e. the uncle who served and died in Greece. I suspect that 50 years ago she gave me a different photo - a photo of Jesse - and that I have incorrectly concantenated the narrative. I have been searching for the photograph she gave me for years - would I recognise it now? I will try to find a photo of Jesse Gubbin - with luck the Swindon Evening Advertiser might have published his photo upon his death. I am sure I remember facial hair. Perhaps fitting for a CQMS.

 

Meanwhile, who is the man in the photo described as "Tom Pearce of Winterbourne Monkton, Avebury, Wilts. Killed in Action in 1st WW"?

 

At this stage, I think it’s best to consider every male in that section of your fam8ly tree who meets the age criteria that we set out previously (born between about 1878 and 1884, I think?) and start working forwards to see which ones were still alive by about 1914 and whether any of them could have an MIC or a surviving service record linking them to the RDF, or any link to Winterbourne Monkton. 

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1 hour ago, headgardener said:

At this stage, I think it’s best to consider every male in that section of your fam8ly tree who meets the age criteria that we set out previously (born between about 1878 and 1884, I think?) and start working forwards to see which ones were still alive by about 1914 and whether any of them could have an MIC or a surviving service record linking them to the RDF, or any link to Winterbourne Monkton. 

 

Maybe I should get out more. I turned this on its head and went looking for families associated with Winterbourne Monkton, (quite a lot of individuals!) and then tried winnowing it down to those born 1882 +/- 5 years on the 1891 census, (still a lot), and then looking for male Gubbins, (nil), Harper, (nil) and Pearce - one match.

 

John Pearce, aged 13 and a ploughboy born Berwick Bassett, was recorded living in a dwelling on Monhton Road, Winterbourne Monkton. This was the household of his parent Jacob, (aged 49, a Sheppard, born Aldbourne, Wilts) and Mary, (52, born Ashton Keynes, Wiltshire).

 

There are surviving Militia papers for a John Pearce, born Berwick Bassett, who was 17 years and 11 Months when he joined the 3 Battalion, Wiltshire Regiment  at Devizes on the 11th January 1897 - which doesn't quite tie in with the age calculated from the Census.

 

He lived at Monkton and worked as a Labourer. He was described as 5 feet 2 and a half inches tall, weighed 114lbs, had a fair complexion with blue eyes and red hair.

 

He was issued with service number 5109. He attended the annual camps in 1897, 98 & 99 before before being embodied in the 3rd Battalion on the 23rd February 1900. On the 27th March 1900 he joined the Kings Royal Rifle Corps.

 

There are then surviving records in the WO97 series for his time with the KRRC, service number 2883. This was a short service with 3 years in the colours and 9 in the reserves and he joined them at Fermoy. Now aged 21, he was 5 feet 4 and a half inches, weighed 129 lbs, had a fresh compexion with blue eyes and sandy hair. he also had a tatto on right arm. His father was Jacob and his mother was Mary.

 

He was posted to the 1st Battalion on the 18th July 1900. Unfortunately there it really starts to unravel - he did receive 1 good conduct pay increase but lost it when he spent time in Military prison. He was transferred to the Army Reserve in 1904 and completed his first period of enlistment in 1912. He is shown in South Africa from the 11th December 1901 to the 10th March 1904. He received the South Africa Medal with the Clasp for the O.S (Orange State?).

 

He married a Lilian Emily Bull at the Parish Church in Winterbourne Monkton on the 20th November 1909.

 

So not the man in the picture, and I have already asked "are we looking for a John rather than a Tom":), and I don't know how John relates to Russ' family - but does raise the question in my mind, have some of the details relating to three or more individuals become mixed up in family legend?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, PRC said:

Norwich for example had 10+ churches gutted during WW2 air-raids, while others were removed for post-war civic improvements and the memorials have been lost, while sadly a number of Norfolk churches have been lost to fires over the last century or condemned as unsafe and the fittings stripped out, while non-conformist branches of Christianity have folded or moved to more practicable buildings without taking the memorials - and I can't believe these scenario's are unique to Norfolk. Fortunately there is a publication from the 1920's that states it lists every name on every war memorial newly unveiled in Norfolk, but even then I have come across a number of examples that were missed.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Peter

 

Strange coincidence. In the post above I wrote about and then deleted the example of a chap who I expected to find on the memorial of my village but for some reason (marriage as far as I could see) is listed in the nearby city rather than the village of his birth and childhood. I compiled a list and file for the Baptist Chapel Remembrance Service in 2018. St. Edmonds Costessey and Norwich....

 

Russ

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5 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Maybe I should get out more. I turned this on its head and went looking for families associated with Winterbourne Monkton, (quite a lot of individuals!) and then tried winnowing it down to those born 1882 +/- 5 years on the 1891 census, (still a lot), and then looking for male Gubbins, (nil), Harper, (nil) and Pearce - one match.

 

John Pearce, aged 13 and a ploughboy born Berwick Bassett, was recorded living in a dwelling on Monhton Road, Winterbourne Monkton. This was the household of his parent Jacob, (aged 49, a Sheppard, born Aldbourne, Wilts) and Mary, (52, born Ashton Keynes, Wiltshire).

 

There are surviving Militia papers for a John Pearce, born Berwick Bassett, who was 17 years and 11 Months when he joined the 3 Battalion, Wiltshire Regiment  at Devizes on the 11th January 1897 - which doesn't quite tie in with the age calculated from the Census.

 

He lived at Monkton and worked as a Labourer. He was described as 5 feet 2 and a half inches tall, weighed 114lbs, had a fair complexion with blue eyes and red hair.

 

He was issued with service number 5109. He attended the annual camps in 1897, 98 & 99 before before being embodied in the 3rd Battalion on the 23rd February 1900. On the 27th March 1900 he joined the Kings Royal Rifle Corps.

 

There are then surviving records in the WO97 series for his time with the KRRC, service number 2883. This was a short service with 3 years in the colours and 9 in the reserves and he joined them at Fermoy. Now aged 21, he was 5 feet 4 and a half inches, weighed 129 lbs, had a fresh compexion with blue eyes and sandy hair. he also had a tatto on right arm. His father was Jacob and his mother was Mary.

 

He was posted to the 1st Battalion on the 18th July 1900. Unfortunately there it really starts to unravel - he did receive 1 good conduct pay increase but lost it when he spent time in Military prison. He was transferred to the Army Reserve in 1904 and completed his first period of enlistment in 1912. He is shown in South Africa from the 11th December 1901 to the 10th March 1904. He received the South Africa Medal with the Clasp for the O.S (Orange State?).

 

He married a Lilian Emily Bull at the Parish Church in Winterbourne Monkton on the 20th November 1909.

 

So not the man in the picture, and I have already asked "are we looking for a John rather than a Tom":), and I don't know how John relates to Russ' family - but does raise the question in my mind, have some of the details relating to three or more individuals become mixed up in family legend?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

 

Fantastic work on this Peter.

 

He may of not be our man in the photo but I will try to link him to Alice. He sounds quite the character. I do remember your “a John rather than Tom” question. Possibly. 

 

Winterbourne Monkton and Berwick Bassett are both very small and close together. Also close to Avebury so I wondered if there was some drift between the villages. I turned this record up but have not gone any further yet.

Tom Pearce baptised in Avebury in 1877. 

 

C9EF6787-B4A7-4DBB-94B1-91347E0378D1.png

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14 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Maybe I should get out more. I turned this on its head and went looking for families associated with Winterbourne Monkton, (quite a lot of individuals!) and then tried winnowing it down to those born 1882 +/- 5 years on the 1891 census, (still a lot), and then looking for male Gubbins, (nil), Harper, (nil) and Pearce - one match.

 

 

Have some of the details relating to three or more individuals become mixed up in family legend?

 

 

Excellent lateral thinking Peter. Yes, I think clearly the details written on the back of the card plus conflated memories have stymied attempts to ID the man in the photo. 

He was definitely a professional soldier and at some time (probably 1914) he was in the RDF, and he has a family connection with Russ' grandparents. 

Maybe Russ can post a list of possible candidates (based on birth between 1878 and 1884) from the family tree to check against the various sources (MIC's, Service papers, 1901 & 1911 census, local war memorials) ? I'm struggling to think of a better way to make progress with this..... 

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I will compile the list as you suggest. Might take a couple of days though - I have been neglecting a few jobs....

 

No-one has mentioned attacking it from the RDF end. When looking for Alice’s husband’s service Albert Platt I found that the Bedfordshire’s had an excellent and very helpful (unofficial I think) chief historian. He has his own databases and all manner of non-Ancestry/Short Service/CWGC information. I had a look but could not find a RDF equivalent. Perhaps somewhat more political.....

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1 hour ago, Russ Platt said:

Winterbourne Monkton and Berwick Bassett are both very small and close together. Also close to Avebury so I wondered if there was some drift between the villages.

 

I'm not at all familiar with the area so look to your local knowledge.

 

On the 1891 Census Frederick Pearce was living with his parents Richard and Elizabeth at 125 Monkton Road, Berwick Bassett, while John Pearce was living with his parents at Monkton Road, Winterbourne Monkton.

 

Google maps does not shows anywhere with those name, and the only road connecting the two villages is now the A4361.

 

Apologies for keep bringing up Norfolk, but I can think of plenty of examples where on a long road, (if your walking), between two villages, with the occasional cluster of houses and no turnings off, (or none of any consequence), where even in 2020 the natives are unsure of where one village end and another begins. I'm even got one instance where an old church parish boundary dipped around part of the road, even though there was no turn off to the village concerned, and so one of the residents who fell in the Great War is remembered in the related parish church. There can be all sorts of reasons why one village is preferred over the other, and going through the paperwork over a century later it can certainly defy logic. I was having problems with one address until someone with local knowledge pointed out that while an address was two thirds of the way between Village A and Village B on a road with no turnings, it was a gentle slope up from Village A, (which had shops) to the Address, but a hill of about 80 feet between the Address and Village B, which didn't have shops. A was in Norfolk and B was in Suffolk.

 

Which is a longwinded way to say that don't rule out that someone said to be born Winterbourne Monkton may just as easily have been born Berwick Bassett, and vice versa, as far as moden cartography is concerned. Church parish boundaries could wriggle and twist reflecting the lands owned by whoever owned the "living", i.e., whichever local landowner had the power to appoint the priest and lands owned by the priest and the local bishop.

 

So when checking any data sources it will probably pay to be broadminded about place of birth.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Lovely place Norfolk but certainly has some strange ways. Byways, roads called The Street, two distinctly named villages either side of a wadable river and is it the spelling or the pronunciation that is off (Happisburgh etc.)? Dark mutterings of land owners “rights“ in the old days too but I am a happy convert!
 

Will cast the net wide - certainly a lot of Pearce’s in southern Wiltshire through to Berkshire but suspect Alice related to the lot.

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4 hours ago, Russ Platt said:

I will compile the list as you suggest. Might take a couple of days though - I have been neglecting a few jobs....

 

No-one has mentioned attacking it from the RDF end. When looking for Alice’s husband’s service Albert Platt I found that the Bedfordshire’s had an excellent and very helpful (unofficial I think) chief historian. He has his own databases and all manner of non-Ancestry/Short Service/CWGC information. I had a look but could not find a RDF equivalent. Perhaps somewhat more political.....


With regards to pursuing things through the RDF connection, there is a RDF website that would not only be interested in a copy of your photo, but perhaps able to aid your research a little:

 https://royaldublinfusiliers.com

There is a member there who specialises in the RDF who is a member both here in the GWF, the B&CBF and in the GMIC Forum.  From memory he uses the forum name NOOR: https://www.greatwarforum.org/profile/52888-noor/

He is based in Dublin, but originally hails from Estonia I believe.  As a hobby he often research’s RDF named medals.

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8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:


With regards to pursuing things through the RDF connection, there is a RDF website that would not only be interested in a copy of your photo, but perhaps able to aid your research a little:

 https://royaldublinfusiliers.com

There is a member there who specialises in the RDF who is a member both here in the GWF, the B&CBF and in the GMIC Forum.  From memory he uses the forum name NOOR: https://www.greatwarforum.org/profile/52888-noor/

He is based in Dublin, but originally hails from Estonia I believe.  As a hobby he often research’s RDF named medals.

 

Great info - thank you. I will try both.

Russ

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Russ

Tom Pearce, son of Moses and Mary Pearce was born in East Kennett. Moses was born in West Kennett and Mary, Moses' first wife was born in Overton. Moses and Mary were married in Overton in 1864. ( Census shows spelling as Kennett although I know it also appears as Kennet.) 

Tom was an under groom in 1891 and the family at Kennett Hill in 1891. 

Interestingly there is a war memorial for Fyfield, Lockeridge and Overton with 23 WW1 names, however if you follow the link below and read the Upper Kennet News there is mention that there should have been a 24th name on the memorial. Whose name this is may be discovered by reading the booklet about war memorials in the area, mentioned at the end of the article.

https://www.upperkennetnews.co.uk/UKNpdf/KVN September 2018.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

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A great find Myrtle and thank you. The right name and just the other side of Avebury so a definite maybe! He is the chap that I included in #83.

 

My reading is that the parish minutes say 24 and they ended up with 23 on the memorial but it is not clear why. Perhaps a mid-understanding at the time perhaps another parish ”claimed” him, perhaps the 24th chal turned up. I wonder how to get hold of the booklet? I might try the vicar.

 

You did not say but did you check if this Tom served?

 

Russ

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2 hours ago, Russ Platt said:

 

You did not say but did you check if this Tom served?

 

Russ

I have left that for you to do  😉 but remember there were many men not listed by CWGC as the “In from the Cold” project has proved. 
 

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19 minutes ago, Myrtle said:

I have left that for you to do  😉 but remember there were many men not listed by CWGC as the “In from the Cold” project has proved. 
 

Hi Myrtle

 

Absolutely fine - I did not want to duplicate. Well, it turns out that Tom is my 1st Cousin 3x removed. I had Moses but not Tom. No sign of service yet but I will keep looking. 

Thanks also for the In from the Cold mention - I had not heard of it.

Russ

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Help please....

 

Looking back to #83 and spurred on by Myrtle I have linked Tom Pearce to Alice. I have also found him in the 1901 Census at Pirbright Guards Camp. Number 9 in the image below.

 

He is listed in the the census as 24 years old so by 1914 he would have been 37 - within the age range that has been discussed. This record would also fit with at least 12 years and less than 16 years service by 1914.

 

So. Does being at the Guards Camp in 1901 mean that he was newly recruited? How would a recruit get from here to the RDF by 1914?

 

Russ

57475439-2ECE-403F-A391-08E415B9D0F4.png

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There are surviving service records in the WO 97 series for Tom Peace, born Kennett, Wiltshire who enlisted in the Coldstream Guards at the Market Place, Swindon, on the 26th January 1898. He was then aged 21 years and 2 months, was unmarried, had no previous military experience and worked as a Groom. He was issued with service number 1384 and signed up for 7 years in the Colours and 5 in the Reserves. His father was Moses Pearce, of Ivy Cottage, West Kennett, and there is a brother and sister listed as his next of kin.

 

He was then 5 feet 10 inches tall, weighed 154lbs, and had a fresh complexion with brown hair and eyes. He had no distinguishing marks. His medical took place at Devizes on the next day. He reported to the London Depot on the 29th. He was posted to the 1st Battalion on the 1st July 1898. From the 10th March 1899 to the 27th October 1899 he is shown at Gibraltar and from the following day South Africa. His service in South Africa is shown as ending on the 20th July 1900, returning to the UK the next day!

 

He was posted to the 3rd Battalion on the 21st July 1900, having already received his first good conduct pay increase earlier in the year.

 

On the 16th January 1902 he was posted to the 2nd Battalion and is also shown in South Africa from the same date, returning to the UK on the 7th October 1902

On the 1st November 1902 he went back to the 1st Battalion. He received the South Africa War Medal with clasps for Belmont, Modder River, Driesfontein and South Africa 1902.

 

On the 20th October 1903 he was discharged as medically unfit. His address on discharge would be c\o a Mrs Sery(?), 9 Princes Street, Cambridge. His discharge proceedings confirms he has 1 Good Conduct Badge and would not qualify for another before his proposed date of discharge. It looks like the proceedings took place at the Connaught Hospital, Aldershot. There is no indication as to why he was medically unfit.

 

On FindMy Past there is a medal award book for the South Africa campaign  to which a column has been added - "Born" and the entries show month and year. For 1384 T. Pearce the entry is Nov.-76. In also notes he was Invalided after a period of service from 28th October 1899 to the 20th July 1900.

 

Can't see any obvious match for him on the 1911 Census of England & Wales, and no likely deaths betwen 1903 and 1911. It looks like his step-mother Leonora died in 1904 and his father Moses in 1906. No obvious candidate for a Wiltshire marriage of Tom. There is an elderly retired Baker living alone on the 1911 Census of England & Wales at the 9 Princes Street, Cambridge address that he was discharged to. I then tried a wildcard search and came up with a 34 year old Tom "Pierce", an unmarried Ploughman born Kennett, Wiltshire, who was recorded as a Lodger at Common Farm, Witchford, near Ely, Cambridgeshire - but note of caution. Wiltshire has been added by the Census taker and there is a Kennett near Newmarket, Cambridgeshire.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

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Goodness Peter - what a trove of information. Thank you. 

 

Is all of the WO97 Guards service information from FindMyPast? I assume that you agree with the 1911 Pirbright census.

 

The detail is staggering - I will dig out my battles of the nineteenth century later!

 

So we have Tom related to Alice, being from the Avebury area and tracked thorough recruitment to discharge but not definitively linked to the photograph of a RDF man with 12 years good conduct. Something still appears to be off. Right story but the wrong photo? But why would Alice have this chaps photograph - no tittering at the back - such that my dad would annotate it thus? 
 

We have already linked to Jesse Gubbins MM as probably my Alice uncle photo story and now we have a pre-WW1 serviceman of the right age. Perhaps the service history of the Pearce/Platt family is richer than I understood and there are more to find who collectively join three or four men to the sketchy memories.

 

I note your caution about the Cambs. Kennett. TT in Cambs and properly T in Wilts but often mixed. I smile and nod to my Dad each time I drive past the sign on the A11 and the next sign is for Chippenham (”Chip’num”)! By the strangest timing I will be driving past twice today.

 

Much to ponder. On Myrtle’s 24th man long-shot I have made contact with the author of the article on the war memorial. I feel that there are more twists yet to come...

 

Best 

 

Russ

 

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Hi Peter, Russ and all,

I think I may have to subscribe to another site!

FYI  the brother mentioned by Peter as NOK to the Tom listed above is shown in other trees on Ancestry as Edgar William Pearce b.21.12.1872, West Kennett (Chelsea Pensioner Records on Fold 3) he was 2934 in the Wiltshire Regt. Died 1898 , Marlborough. Wilts.

Looking for the right man....

Regards Barry

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26 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

Hi Peter, Russ and all,

I think I may have to subscribe to another site!

FYI  the brother mentioned by Peter as NOK to the Tom listed above is shown in other trees on Ancestry as Edgar William Pearce b.21.12.1872, West Kennett (Chelsea Pensioner Records on Fold 3) he was 2934 in the Wiltshire Regt. Died 1898 , Marlborough. Wilts.

Looking for the right man....

Regards Barry


I agree! I have Edgar William in my A tree but not the service. Thank you.
 

I have found a chap registered as Tom Pearce dying in Ely in 1914 although the birth year is 2-3 years out and does not quite fit.
 

As above perhaps we have a third (or fourth now?) chap. Dublin and Coldstream - separately or together?
 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Russ Platt said:

Is all of the WO97 Guards service information from FindMyPast?

 

Yes it is, although I use another site, Genes Reunited, for my genealogy stuff. It's now owned by BrightSolid, like FMP, and has a much, much smaller selection of records, but the flexibility of the search engine and the appropriateness of the results leaves Ancestry & FMP in the dust. Also means I can bring a little something different to the party on quests like this :)

 

2 hours ago, Russ Platt said:

I assume that you agree with the 1911 Pirbright census.

 

That was my starting point - as it was an institutional return I wanted to see if by scrolling back it was possible to identify which part of the Foot Guards he was with. Certainly the Census agrees wit the Service Records that he was in England on the 31st March 1901 when the Census was taken.

 

2 hours ago, Russ Platt said:

The detail is staggering - I will dig out my battles of the nineteenth century later!

 

Brief summary of the 1st Battalion in the Anglo-Boer War here:-

https://www.angloboerwar.com/unit-information/imperial-units/543-coldstream-guards

 

2 hours ago, Russ Platt said:

So we have Tom related to Alice, being from the Avebury area and tracked thorough recruitment to discharge but not definitively linked to the photograph of a RDF man with 12 years good conduct. Something still appears to be off. Right story but the wrong photo?

 

No medal ribbons on the man in the photo, so has to rule out anyone who served in the Boer War.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

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45 minutes ago, Russ Platt said:

 

As above perhaps we have a third (or fourth now?) chap. Dublin and Coldstream - separately or together?

 

,

The Coldstreamer and the RDF man are almost certainly 2 separate people. The CG man had a QSA Medal and limited service, the RDF man had no medals and long continuous service.

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