Idwal Ben HUMPHREY - KLR Casualty Id solved

[PRC]

On 18/11/2017 at 20:28, davidbohl said:

Excellent analysis as ever chaps.

His medal card says "sick", that sounds more physical than mental, what does King's regs para 392 XVI say, does it expand the meaning of the word for us ?

I've checked the playing records for the 1919-20 season before he left us and he never crossed the whitewash.

If he never went overseas would he have served perhaps on the docks unloading the wounded coming back from the front.

Being of slight build he may have picked up some kind of lurgy from those poor guys and couldn't shake it off.

 

dave

 

Dave

 

xvi) No longer physically fit for service

however there is no equivalent for mentally fit, so I wouldn't rule it out. Kings Regs have been discussed a number of times on this forum, particularly here

 

 

Without some personal source such as his service record or a newspaper report, (on discharge or death for example), then anything else would be pure speculation and I've already floated too many red herrings in this thread to add any more :-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[davidbohl]

1920 was the last year he was  a registered teacher, so it looks like he was failing in physical health, perhaps unable to stand in front of the class all day. Have doubts he would have got away with 4/5 years of mental health problems.

 

Dave

 

First name(s)	Last name	Residence	First position year	Registration year
Hugh William	Mitchell	Toxteth, Liverpool	1904	1920

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

His death certificate would give the immediate cause of death- eg TB, nephritis, or suicide, but might gloss over if there was mental ilness involved as a secondary issue.

[PRC]

Dave,

 

What's the source for these dates - is it local or national?

 

1 hour ago, davidbohl said:

1920 was the last year he was  a registered teacher, so it looks like he was failing in physical health, perhaps unable to stand in front of the class all day. Have doubts he would have got away with 4/5 years of mental health problems.

 

Dave

 

First name(s)	Last name	Residence	First position year	Registration year
Hugh William	Mitchell	Toxteth, Liverpool	1904	1920

 

If he had moved back to Bristol in 1920 at the time he resigned from the club, (and that's only a possibility but his residence wouldn't be Toxteth), then if its not national he could have carried on teaching. I also wouldn't assume that Hugh returned immediately to teaching as his initial recovery may have prevented it, and then the manpower crisis of 1917/18 may have forced the local council to re-engage him. With inflation raging he may also have been financially forced back into work, although he was not short of a bob or two when he died - his estate of £750 in 1924 would equate to about £31k today.

 

Alternatively, I believe there were a number of local general strikes in 1919 to force employers to take back discharged soldiers into roles that had been taken, (and performed very well), by women. I have a hazy memory that there was one in Liverpool over council workers and tram "dollies", but I only read it in passing when I was spending my own day "at the coal face" in the local country archive reading through contemporary newspapers. Being such a touchy subject, Hugh could have been offered his old job back in 1919/20 and was then found unable to carry out his duties.

 

As for a teacher surviving 4/5 years with mental health problems, I must remember to discuss that with some of the sadists who taught me, if I ever go to a school re-union :-)

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 18 November , 2017 by PRC
Typo

[davidbohl]

The teacher registration is an index from FindMyPast, there will be a more informative document sitting behind it if you have a subscription. I'll get it on Monday from the library unless some of the bods retrieve it first.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/search-united-kingdom-records/teachers-registration-council-registers-1914-1948

 

Dave

 

[clk]

Hi Dave,

 

4 hours ago, davidbohl said:

1920 was the last year he was  a registered teacher

 

It might be the case, but that's not quite how I read the record:

 

 

To my way of thinking 1920 was the year that he first registered, despite having previous teaching experience - in a similar way to my great uncle (below).

 

Images sourced from FMP Teachers' Registration Council Registers 1914-1948

 

Regards

Chris

 

[PRC]

Found this on the National Archive site about the Teachers Registration Council.

It soon became apparent, however, that it was not practicable to frame and publish an alphabetical register of teachers in a form contemplated by the 1899 Act. The form in which the register was kept led to protests by the National Union of Teachers and the board's obligation to maintain such a register was accordingly removed under Section 16 of the Education (Administrative Provisions) Act, 1907. This latter Act did, however, provide that His Majesty may "constitute a registration council representative of the teaching profession, to whom shall be assigned the duty of forming and keeping a register of such teachers as satisfy the conditions of registration established by the Council for the time being, and who apply to be registered". Such a registration council was constituted by Order in Council in 1912.

The council was independent of the Board of Education, having separate accounts. It issued lists of teachers in alphabetical order; registration was voluntary. As neither the board nor the local education authorities used the register in selecting candidates for promotion, its attraction remained limited.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C6843

So by the sounds of things it was voluntary, added no additional status or enhancement to employment prospects, and cost a guinea to register, looking at the fee on the page for Hugh - no wonder Teachers weren't falling over themselves to sign up in a speedy manner.

BTW - don't you just love these little snippets that turn up along the way :-)

Cheers,

Peter

[davidbohl]

This is Hugh's entry in the NUT War Record 1914-19

[davidbohl]

I've gathered all the information possible to create a website page for the club, I've tried to keep it as simple as possible, not going to the 'n'th degree of detail so the average reader can keep a grip of what was going on. Hope it does justice to the great men who founded our rugby club.

Once again thanks to all involved at GWF, all comments/bloopers will be well received.

Dave

 

http://www.seftonrugby.org.uk/Private%20J.B.Humprey%20killed%20in%20WW1.html

Edited 26 December , 2019 by davidbohl
update link

[HolymoleyRE]

24 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

I've gathered all the information possible to create a website page for the club, I've tried to keep it as simple as possible, not going to the 'n'th degree of detail so the average reader can keep a grip of what was going on. Hope it does justice to the great men who founded our rugby club.

Once again thanks to all involved at GWF, all comments/bloopers will be well received.

Dave

 

http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/Private J.B.Humprey killed in WW1.html

Nice work David!

[davidbohl]

Interesting article from the Liverpool Courier 5th Dec 1914 regarding Teachers and Military Service.

Also says "As is well known, the Board of Education was, before war broke out, faced with a deplorable shortage of teachers of both sexes, but particularly of men."

This is obviously how and why the Aliens RFC came into being.

 

http://www.seftonrugby.org.uk/TeachersMilitaryServ1914.html

 

Dave

 

Edited 16 December , 2020 by davidbohl

[King Williams College IOM]

I appreciate that this thread closed a long time ago, but I have just been reading it with interest. I am a teacher at King William's College, Isle of Man and Idwal Humphrey is one of 139 WW1 casualties I am researching as part of our centenary commemorations.

 

I know that he was a cricketer and played for the 1st XI in 1913 (I have a team photo with him in), but he didn't play for the 1st XV rugby team. I would have to wait until I get into school to look him up in the College 'Barrovian' magazines to see from team lists/match reports if he played for the 2nd XV.

 

If he didn't, you might have to go back to the drawing board!! 

 

I can let you know what I find, if anyone's still interested - I'll certainly find some sort of extra biographical information.

 

Best wishes,

Alison

 

 

 

[davidbohl]

Some kind words to share about GWF from Scott Roberts in Edinburgh who is researching soldiers from the Midland Bank:-

 

"I’ve just come across your fantastic post on “Private J.B. Humphrey - The Alien Who Never Was” http://www.seftonrugby.org.uk/Private%20J.B.Humprey%20killed%20in%20WW1.html and the even more extraordinary thread from the Great War Forum in which you and others pieced together this story.

 

My congratulations to you all on an outstanding piece of sleuthing that Sherlock Holmes would be proud of! For what it is worth, I concur wholeheartedly with your conclusion that J.B. and I.B are one and the same person. If you are still active on the forum, please do pass on my admiration to all involved. I know good work when I see it!

 

The reason that I came to read this is that I am researching I.B.Humphrey as part of a project researching former employees of the Midland Bank who died in WW1. I’d already discovered quite a bit of the info that you had from my own research prior to finding your post, but you have certainly added considerable information to what I had, particularly about his rugby playing! Thank you very much for this.

 

In return, I think that I can offer two more snippets that you may not have about Humphrey.

 

Firstly, a minor piece of info is that his employment with the City and Midland Bank in Liverpool started on 12 August 1913. I note that this is less than a month prior to him joining the Aliens. We know that he was sitting school exams in 1912, presumably on the Isle of Man, and I don’t know what he got up to between 1912 and 1913 but starting a new job and joining a local rugby club within a short period does seem consistent with the idea that he had recently moved back to Liverpool.

 

The other thing relates to his death. You are right that this was as a result of the battle of Machukovo, but I can be more specific than that. The following quotation comes from the third volume of Everard Wyrall’s “The History of the King’s Regiment (Liverpool) 1914-1919”, page 591, location Macukovo Ravine:

 

"At 9.30 p.m. Second-Lieut. Bryson and Second-Lieut. I. B. Humphrey took out patrols to investigate the enemy's wire, the latter officer becoming mortally wounded in carrying out his orders; he died on the 14th.”

 

The main fighting took place the next day, so it seems that he was wounded during a pre-battle reconnaissance. There aren’t any other references to Humphrey in that book, I’m afraid, other than listing his death in the depressingly long list of casualties in the index.

 

Regards,

Scott Roberts"