Idwal Ben HUMPHREY - KLR Casualty Id solved

[RaySearching]

On 23/10/2017 at 17:04, davidbohl said:

The rugby club minutes attached list him as 'fallen in action'                 but later one of them returned quote 'broken in health' and had subsequently died.

 

Thoughts , One of the above statements must be wrong

 

I have taken the liberty of adding the following from Davids website

 

 

As can be seen above all the rugby players are from professional backgrounds

Humphrey must be connected to the above somehow,maybe they all attended the same college or university ?

if the connection between Humphrey and the other players can be found, it may result in a positive result

 

Maybe  J  John ,Joseph James or whatever his forname was  enlisted ,  discarding his middle name as many soldiers did

 

 

Ray

 

 

Edited 24 October , 2017 by RaySearching

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, RaySearching said:

 

Thoughts , One of the above statements must be wrong

 

I have taken the liberty of adding the following from Davids website

 

 

As can be seen above all the rugby players are from professional backgrounds

Humphrey must be connected to the above somehow,maybe they all attended the same college or university ?

if the connection between Humphrey and the other players can be found, it may result in a positive result

 

Maybe  J  John ,Joseph James or whatever his forname was  enlisted ,  discarding his middle name as many soldiers did

 

 

Ray

 

 

If '6 of the 8 were members of the scholastic profession' and we have 5 teachers then Humphreys should be associated with that profession as the other two men are already accounted for.

 

Craig

[daggers]

James Fogden Humphrey and family were at 54 Madelaine Street, Toxteth Park in the 1911 census.  James junior was a clerk, corn merchant and his father (same names) was a clerk, grain storage.  Ancestry's transcription is adrift.

The father may have changed occupations and houses between 1901 and 1911.

Daggers

[daggers]

A younger brother of James is on the 1911 census, Humphrey Warren Humphrey, aged 11 and there are over 30 pages of army records for him, though he seems to have served only 1917-19, first in a graduated battalion of the Training Reserve, number 567814 and perhaps later in KSLI before discharge, re-enlistment and discharge to reserve.  Many pages have been duplicated.  I was looking at them too late at night but someone with better eyes might see if there is any relevance.

D

[clk]

Hi,

 

I don't think that it helps that much, but looking at the eight fullbacks in the list, and taking Daves' typed comments/dates next to each entry on board, then Soldiers' Effects show that Brown, Venmore, Weights, and Williamson were KIA. The record for Griffith just records that he died in France (though his Soldiers Died record does have him as KIA). The one for Beverely indicates that he died in 64 General Hospital (in Greece). Linking that back to the 1924 Applebee statement, and taking it at face value, that would appear to make him a good candidate for the chap that died of wounds. That would appear to leave just Howe and Humphrey as potentials for the man that "returned so broken in health that he has since gone under". Presuming that 'gone under' is a euphemism for died/buried, my guess at that would be that there was one of two who were potentially evacuated back to the UK, and died prior to 1925. That being the case, a 'civilian registration' record should exist, even if he had died in a military hospital. 

 

Looking at it a bit further, the hand written list shows a 'N Howe'. However on Daves' website he is identified as Frederick Norman Howe, RFA - KIA 25th April 1918. That chap is commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial, and is recorded in Soldiers' Effects as having 'died of wounds'. Whilst that would appear to muddy the waters as to why only one of the 8 was noted as DOW, it would appear to rule Howe out as being a possibility for the man that "returned", and seemingly only leave the subject of the original post.

 

One reason for there not appearing to be a CWGC commemoration might be that he died after the end qualification date of 31st August 1921.

 

I'm still intrigued about the choice of words "...so broken in health...".

 

Regards

Chris

[PRC]

I'd like to set the hare off on a few more potential lines of enquiry - apologies if they are red herrings or too convoluted.

 

1. Rugby Union. It may be too much of a generalisation, but wasn't the main source of new players at this time likely to be Grammar Schools and Public Schools? Just the very place you'd expect would also produce teachers and bank clerks, etc. I see Captain James Venmore went to Liverpool College, for example. For ease of reference I've attached the URL for the Liverpool College Roll of Honour, although it is also on Captain Venmore's page on the Sefton Aliens RUFC site.

http://www.merseysiderollofhonour.co.uk/memorials/liverpool/toxteth/liverpoolcollege.php#Further_sources_of_information

It lists those who served as well as the fallen and wounded. However, no Humphrey \ Humphreys \ Humphries, but then no Gwilym Madoc Jones or his brother either.

May be worth looking at the other members of the club, not just the fallen, to see if any other regular academic sources occur.

If he only played for one year then he may have played for other clubs in other areas - may be worth trying the World Rugby Museum to see if their attempts to pull together a Great War Memorial for all players has turned him up elsewhere.

http://www.englandrugby.com/about-the-rfu/ww1-commemorations/

 

2. Bank Clerks. Gwilym Madoc Brown and his brother were trainee bank clerks on the 1911 census. In 1913 Gwilym proposed the membership of J B Humphrey. That of course could have been a fellow employee, new to the area since the 1911 census but coming from a Grammar School \ Public School background. Identify the bank and you might well find they have published or have maintained a Roll of Honour for the Great War, with possibly a list of those who served.

 

3. Teacher Training College. We have 8 teachers to account for, all of whom would have had some form of vocational training. Identify a common theme and it may prove possible to identify someone from outside the area who came to work in Liverpool post the 1911 census via a Roll of Honour.

 

4, "Gone under". I too am intrigued by that turn of phrase. While your mind can automatically jump to the "six feet under" interpretation, it could just as easily mean that physical, or mental health, had "gone, under the strain of war", and therefore such an individual would never be likely to play rugby again. A run through the probate calendar for the UK for the period 1919 - 1925 doesn't throw up any potential matches, but of course he may not have had an estate that needed to be dealt with. Deaths in England and Wales are equally unforthcoming, although  the sources I use don't have the facility to hunt for a J B Humphrey, and searching for a J Humphrey brings up a lot of matches. I've tried searching for a James B*, Jesse B*, John B* and Joseph B* but the first potential of an individual likely to have been young enough \ old enough to have been playing Rugby as an adult in 1913 and serve in the Great War was in 1930.

Our man may potentially have lived on.

 

5. Whats in a middle name (1). B could have stood for Bert, (or some other shortening). That would bring  J. Albert, J. Herbert and J. Robert and possibly others into the picture

 

6. Whats in a middle name (2). If the bar is dropped on this then middle initials that sound similar or could be mis-read exist all other the alphabet. One example, although I don't think its the individual listed here is the 14 year old John C Humphreys, born Willesden, Middlesex, who was recorded on the 1901 Census working as a Shipping Clerk and living at 8 Russell Road, Toxteth Park, Sefton Park East. This was the household of his parents, Charles, (46, Railway Station Master, born Norton, Shropshire) and May, (48, born Scotland). There are four other children including Arthur, (16, Shipping Clerk) and Annie E, (17, Post Office Telegraphist). Neighbours include a retired solicitor, an accountant and two managers of furniture stores. Sounds like the kind of socially aspirational family that might send a son to grammar school, (1) or whose son might move in the same circles as bank clerks, (2). John C does not appear to be on the 1911 census of England and Wales, but hasn't obviously died in those countries. He may have been travelling through work, (which is also a possible reason why he might have only played one season), or visiting maternal relatives in Scotland, or resident anywhere else in the world. Birth records had him as John Charles. His parents were still living in Liverpool on the 1911 census, but were now at 117 Botanic Road, Edge Hill, Liverpool. They state they have had 5 children, all then still alive.  Reason I'm not pushing him as a possible candidate, although there are 4 potential MiCs including a Private in the Middlesex Regiment, is that I suspect he is the 53 year old John C. whose death was recorded in the Liverpool North District in 1940 - no Probate entry. But can't be entirely discounted because of (4).

 

7. Pension records? If his health was broken by the war then you'd expect to find pension records. While I've read that many veterans encountered all sorts of obstacles to claiming pensions for injuries that manifested themselves post discharge, ("since gone under"), if we are looking at a teacher or bank clerk you have someone better equipped to handle the bureaucracy of the pensions machinery. So could have been sudden or a slow but steady decline in circumstances that left him unwilling or unable to claim a pension.

 

8.Migrated post 1913? I can't find any likely candidates prior to the mid-twenties for a J B Humphrey, (two to West Africa, so I don't think it was for their health, although both ships departed from Liverpool), but he could have served for other colonial forces, or worst still, America :-) That can become a needle in a haystack if you don't have a CWGC entry to identify which part of the Empire he served in.

 

Sorry about the length - needed to get that lot out of my head !

 

Peter

[davidbohl]

Thanks everbody for the super-sleuthing, attached is the original newpaper clip with the intriguing 'gone under', it was a quote in a grander article in the Echo of 1924 and I don't think it was an announcement of his death. The 'Fallen in Action' page in the minutes is squeezed between two General Meetings of 1-Apr-1919 and 12-Sept-1919 and I assume he had 'gone under' by the latter.

I had considered colonial forces too, another wildcard was a J.B.Humphrey in Newcastle (1911 census), a teeth specialist born in Trinidad (I found out he left a wife and 2 kids back home and lied about Trinidad), I thought he might have fabricated his death and did a runner, I think he lived in Brum until about 1960. All desperate lateral thinking !

 

Dave

[HolymoleyRE]

David, another for the mix of Liverpool born Humphreys who I have been doing some background on is Lt Idwal Ben Humphrey, 14th Btn KLR, born in Liverpool in 1895 to a well to do Merchant family, on the 1911 Census he is at a Public School in the Isle of Man, killed/died in Macedonia Sept 1916 aged 21. His brother Iorwerth, was a Bank Clerk as was Idwal who is remembered on the London Joint City & Midland Bank Memorial in Tower hamlets.

 

Down side is his first name, but a handwritten I and J, are perhaps the two closest when written. He was an Officer but commissioned from a Cadet in December 1914, and doesn't meet the anecdotal info.

 

There is also an AIF man from Greys in Essex, Pte Jesse Herbert (Bert?) Humphrey.

 

Andy

 

 

Edited 26 October , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[PRC]

Quote from that newspaper clipping  “In its early years The Aliens was a school-masters club”

 

If our man was a teacher, then I would assume the three most likely employers in the area are Liverpool City Council, Lancashire County Council and private schools like Liverpool College. We know he's not on the Liverpool College Memorial so I then took a look online to see if there is a Liverpool Municipal Employees Memorial.

 

What I found instead was the online version of the Roll of Honour of the Liverpool War Dead in the Hall of Remembrance at the Town Hall. The description reads  that the Hall was opened by the Prince of Wales in 1921 and lists over 13,000 names. Unless the online version includes subsequent additions, the working theory has to be that a name on there had to be dead by that date.

 

Imagine my surprise when I put in the name Humphrey and get a 2nd Lieutenant J P Humphrey, The King's (Liverpool) Regiment. (Note - there is no Idwal Ben Humphrey).

http://liverpoolcityhalls.co.uk/town-hall/about/hall-of-remembrance/search-roll-of-honour/?surname=Humphrey&page=1

 

Even more of a surprise is when that name doesn't turn up on CWGC. I tried using Geoff's search engine and eventually reduced my search to surname starts with Hump and serving with The Kings. Got 16 matches with 4 variations on the spelling but all Privates \ Riflemen apart form Idwal Ben Humphrey, already identified by Andy above.

https://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/623401/.

Could an I.B. become a J.P. in the town hall and a J.B in the minutes of Sefton RUFC? Guess it depends on the handwriting!

 

I then tried finding a J.P. Humphrey on the death record for England and Wales - 1914- 1928,  but drew a blank on likely candidates.

 

Tried searching for a Mic in the National Archive catalogue, (Surname Hump*,  Corps Liverpool), but no obvious candidate. Of course he could have been home service only. Then tried  looking for the long number papers in WO339 - zilch apart from Idwal Ben.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1058395

Nothing in the Personal Records, (WO374 either)

 

Without any indication of age or where he was born or lived, then checking the census is a real needle in a haystack job - I also get the feeling I'm trying to prove a negative. Maybe the City Council have the story behind the J P Humphrey remembered in the Hall of Remembrance, or someone can take a look at the file of Idwal Ben when they are at Kew.

 

CWGC has the 21 year old Idwal Ben buried in Greece following his death in 1916. That would place him as born circa 1895.  I thought I'd completely lost the plot when I discovered that apparently in the churchyard at St Fraidd, Llansanffraid Glan Conwy, Conwy, Wales, the burial took place on the 14th September 1918 of an Idwal Ben Humphrey born 18th April 1895.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKDG-HP7B

In fact that's two transcriptions errors - the death was in 1916 and was on the 14th September - sigh of relief as I haven't quite lost the plot! Its actually a remembrance stone.

https://billiongraves.com/grave/Idwal-Ben-Humphrey/15290013

 

Idwal is on the Great War Roll of Honour at King Williams College on the Isle of Man.

https://www.kwc.im/alumni/roll-honour-1

Unfortunately they have done a biography for him as yet.

Bit more on the college including a picture of the OTC in 1912 which probably included Idwal.

http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/kwc1933/p022.htm

They may have more in their records that could prove or disprove the connection.

 

Hope some of that helps,

Peter

[HolymoleyRE]

2nd Lt I  B Humphrey, died of wounds.

From the Times daily wounded list.

 

I will also throw in the mix, Idwal was baptised in St Peters Church, Parents living in Grove Street,  all within a very short walk of each other and Sefton Park.

Idwal was baptised Idwal Benjamin Humphrey Jones, but clearly dropped the Jones at somepoint.....perhaps at some point his names was taken down as Jones, Idwal Ben Humphrey.....very, very tenuous I know!

 

 

Edited 26 October , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[daggers]

I would not put too much faith in the accuracy of the Roll of Honour in Liverpool Town Hall, on which I have spent many hours.  It was compiled from notes handed in by relatives of the fallen, with no apparent checks on details of spelling, names, rank or unit/ship.  In the recent past Town Hall staff have been admitting more names, submitted by family members, but are particular about checking for accuracy, and from time to time ceremonies are held in the presence of civic leaders, military figures and families of those whose names have been added to the panels.

 

D

[davidbohl]

I did have a look at Idwal many moons ago but discounted him because of his rank and initials, I even asked the local Welsh church if Idwal was short for John or something, negative.

The attached Echo entry does say he joined as a Private and died of wounds. It was a good lead but we are still hoping for another teacher to go with the Clerk and the Architect.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Idwal B. Jones living at Hendrewaelod Mansion, Llansantffraid Glan Conwy in 1901, aged 5 yrs.

Living with father William H. and mother  Alice.

 

You can see that William and Idwal were both born in Liverpool, Alice in Somersetshire, and although William spoke Welsh (and English), Idwal spoke only English.

It was unusual (but not unheard of) for that era for children to drop the family surname in Welsh families.

 

The Welsh system of surnames was based on patronym persisted widely into the first half of the 19th century, whereby if Humphrey Jones had a son, Idwal, he would become Idwal Humphrey.But by the mid 1800s, the Welsh had switched to the English surname system.

That explains why there are so many Jones', Davies'  & Williams'   in Wales-. There were only a relatively few christian names in use in Wales at the time- John, David, William, Thomas, James etc, and when the switch to the new system occurred (it didn't happen overnight) , the commonest surnames turned out to be the commonest christian names of the previous generation.

The earliest male ancestor of mine in my father's direct line was a James Davies. His son was Evan (b1788) and was Evan James. The family stuck with that surname rather than Davies.

But in many areas of Wales, the patronymic system survived another half century or more.

And we see this commonly today in Wales where it is quite fashionable to drop the standard anglicised surname.

 

But I think we are seeing a slightly different thing here:

A prosperous man, a chemical manufacturer/merchant  from a Welsh family background  born in Liverpool and whose father was keen for the son to prosper in the Victorian/Edwardian Society.

They do after all, live in a mansion, not in a Plas or on a farm

'Jones'  perhaps just a little bit too common for him, so that was dropped in favour of 'Humphrey' as a surname, sometime between 1901 and 1911, when he appears (as mentioned by Holeymoley above), in private school in the Isle of Man.

Edited 26 October , 2017 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[HolymoleyRE]

Hi David, now you have shown us that, my hunch is leaning more to Idwal.

 

A private on enlistment (admitedly taken from a newspaper article, but having researched other Officers with no record of OR service until I pulled the TNA Officer file), died of wounds, the right age, born in Liverpool, was a bank clerk, lived less than two miles from Sefton Park, Public School Boy so rugby would be a played sport, and "I" easily being mistaken for a  "J".

 

Versus the hunt for a missing teacher and a man who doesn't exist?

 

I think Idwal's Officer's file is worth a look 

 

Regards

 

Andy

[RaySearching]

As an aside

 

The link proved  by Peter in post 34  to a photo of a commemorative headstone for Idwal Ben Humphrey  in Saint Ffraidd Churchyard and Extension

The stone in question is actually a war memorial, In Memorial Way at St Ffraid

 

Idwal Ben Humphrey is also commemorated on a family headstone at St Ffraid

 

 

Ray

 

Edited 26 October , 2017 by RaySearching
spelling correction

[davidbohl]

Applebee's handwriting of 'I' and 'J' on are very distinctive in his School Register type records, the 'J' straddling the line.

J.H.Weights (James Herbert)

J.B.Humphrey

 

on the other we see an 'I' in S.R.Irving, the 'I' wholly above the line

[HolymoleyRE]

1 hour ago, davidbohl said:

Applebee's handwriting of 'I' and 'J' on are very distinctive in his School Register type records, the 'J' straddling the line.

J.H.Weights (James Herbert)

J.B.Humphrey

 

on the other we see an 'I' in S.R.Irving, the 'I' wholly above the line

Hi David, not disputing your man Applebee's writing, but maybe a lost in translation spelling of name written down by somebody....i.e what's your mates name Gwilym so we can get him registered for the next big game...I have a fairly familiar surname...lost count the timed it is spelt wrong....or my bad handwriting has been misread....(and I hold a Teaching qualification 😊)

Edited 26 October , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[PRC]

 

1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Idwal B. Jones living at Hendrewaelod Mansion, Llansantffraid Glan Conwy in 1901, aged 5 yrs.

Living with father William H. and mother  Alice.

 

You can see that William and Idwal were both born in Liverpool, Alice in Somersetshire, and although William spoke Welsh (and English), Idwal spoke only English.

It was unusual (but not unheard of) for that era for children to drop the family surname in Welsh families.

 

So Idwal Ben Humphrey, born Jones at Liverpool circa 1895  was proposed as a member of the Sefton RUFC by Gwilym Madoc Jones, born Liverpool circa 1895 and both end up accepted to play for a team of schoolmasters - anyone else suspect star students  or even relatives :-)

 

Idwal Ben Humphrey, a Bank Clerk, is proposed by Gwilym Madoc, Bank Clerk - what's the betting its the same bank.

I would suspect it would be difficult even in a city the size of Liverpool to turn out 15 teachers in a competitive side so some dilution is inevitable, particularly if it brings quality to the team.

 

2 hours ago, davidbohl said:

 It was a good lead but we are still hoping for another teacher to go with the Clerk and the Architect.

 

Could all be co-incidences but its looking like Idwal is a line of enquiry worth following through. May be something in the unit war diary - particularly if the Battalion ran a Rugby team that featured or was coached by Idwal.

 

As to the entry in the Liverpool Hall of Remembrance I was going to try and track down his father on the 1914 Census for samples of his handwriting, but Ray has kindly posted a picture of the family headstone which shows that William Humphrey Jones died in October 1914. It looks like they maintained residences at both Llansantffraid and Liverpool. On the 1911 census of England and Wales, W Humphrey Jones and Alice H. Jones are recorded at Hendrewaelod.

 

The 1914 Probate entry shows that he died there - see attached.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

[HolymoleyRE]

31 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

 

So Idwal Ben Humphrey, born Jones at Liverpool circa 1895  was proposed as a member of the Sefton RUFC by Gwilym Madoc Jones, born Liverpool circa 1895 and both end up accepted to play for a team of schoolmasters - anyone else suspect star students  or even relatives :-)

 

Idwal Ben Humphrey, a Bank Clerk, is proposed by Gwilym Madoc, Bank Clerk - what's the betting its the same bank.

.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Agreed Peter, twas the link to GMJ we were trying to find, GMJ stood out as being a different proposer, so must have personally known Humphrey...both Bank Clerks...

 

1911 Census has GMJ living in Walton, which is 5 miles from where Idwal was living when baptised in 1900.

 

edit, both Idwal and Gwilym were from Welsh lineage.

Edited 26 October , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[davidbohl]

Thanks chaps, I remember a H.A.Smith playing in the 1913-14 season, he joined the Martins Bank in 1917 I think, I've compared the team photo to the one in this link, very similar. No idea why Harold Albert Smith didn't join up, perhaps a work mate of Gwilym and Idwal at another bank first? He is on the 1939 register of FindMyPast.

 

http://www.martinsbank.co.uk/11-31-60 Wallasey New Brighton.htm

[HolymoleyRE]

Idwal was working at the London City and Midland Bank on Castle Street, for a short time...

[PRC]

Through a series of amalgamations, London City and Midland Bank became the Midland Bank and was eventually purchased by HSBC.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/London_City_and_Midland_Bank

 

HSBC have shared their records of Midland Bank employees released for war service with the IWM's Lives of the Great War Project.

 http://blog.livesofthefirstworldwar.org/can-you-find-your-relative-in-the-midland-bank-roll-of-honour/?utm_campaign=news&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dctfhuk&utm_content=163300&sisearchengine=1068&siproduct=Email

 

Unfortunately its subscription to see any details, unless presumably you are signed up to contribute. However a quick search of the index reveals:-

Gwylim Madoc Jones, born 1894, released 1914.

Idwal Ben Humphrey, born 1896, released 1914.

(I would imagine those birth years have been calculated from age).

 

David - presumably if it proves possible to show Idwal and J.B Humphrey were one and the same, then will you need a new candidate for whoever it is deemed to have "gone under"?

 

regards,

Peter

Edited 26 October , 2017 by PRC
Typo

[HolymoleyRE]

Nice find Peter.

[RaySearching]

Throwing another one in the pot

(unless he has already been researched)

 

Kings (Liverpool)Regiment)

 

 

Ray

[davidbohl]

Just checked my notes of the teams here:-

Gwilym M-J bank clerk

http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/s186.jpg

 

Trevor M-J bank clerk

http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/s28.jpg

 

H.A.Smith bank clerk

H.Bateman bank clerk

J.R.Whittle MC bank clerk going on to manager at Martins

http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/s56.jpg

 

If we tend towards Idwal it will upset the balance of the 6 scholastic and 2 others.

Venmore is cast iron as an architect from the Venmore-Thomas Estate Agent family, so suspicion then falls on the N.Howe.

Have I got the correct man in F.N.Howe who was a mercantile clerk ?

 

PS that rifleman above looks interesting now Ray