Idwal Ben HUMPHREY - KLR Casualty Id solved

[HolymoleyRE]

33 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Throwing another one in the pot

(unless he has already been researched)

 

Kings (Liverpool)Regiment)

 

 

Ray

Ray you may have found the final piece, the commissioning date is the same as Idwal's from memory!

 

edit.  Idwals gazetted entry is 1st Dec 1914....

Edited 27 October , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I can't find a MIC for any J.Humphrey in the Liverpool Regiment.

The only J.B. is Henry J.B.Humphrey of the Devonshires.

[PRC]

15 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

If we tend towards Idwal it will upset the balance of the 6 scholastic and 2 others.

Venmore is cast iron as an architect from the Venmore-Thomas Estate Agent family, so suspicion then falls on the N.Howe.

Have I got the correct man in F.N.Howe who was a mercantile clerk ?

 

 

Do you want to start a new thread for Howe or continue on this one?

 

For ease of reference we are talking about this individual

http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/howe18.htm

believed to be

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/837427/howe,-frederick-norman/

(Additional info on CWGC - Brother of William A. Howe, of 19, Duncombe Rd., Garston, Liverpool.)

 

regards,

Peter

[davidbohl]

It's up to you Peter, I'm only a part-timer on the forum, what's easiest ?

[HolymoleyRE]

So Gwilym was 1/6th Btn #2155

and J B Humphrey is 2/6th #2412...with Idwal gaving a commissioning date 2 days off Rays find..

 

 

 

[RaySearching]

Cannot find Idwal's MIC to see if his Pte service number was 2412

 

Ray

 

 

Edit

Found it HERE on Ancestry  no previous service number shown

Edited 27 October , 2017 by RaySearching

[ss002d6252]

14 minutes ago, RaySearching said:

Cannot find Idwal's MIC to see if his Pte service number was 2412

 

Ray

According to the FMP transcription the MIC has no service number shown.

Craig

[HolymoleyRE]

If he was 2/6th and went to an  Officer Training unit (Public school boy ex OTC?) then it wouldn't always show on his MIC??

 

A man I have researched Lt Henzell Case RFA was a Pte on enlistment (held a commission previously) whisked off to Officer Training and Commissioned but no indication on his MIC, but was all in his Officer files.

 

As was Temp/Major Thomas Bevan Royal Welsh Fusiliers, was a Private in a Sportsman Battalion, not on his MIC

 

As we all know anything is possible im WW1 record keeping.

 

Andy

Edited 27 October , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, HolymoleyRE said:

If he was 2/6th and went to an  Officer Training unit (Public school boy ex OTC?) then it wouldn't show on his MIC??

 

A man I have researched Lt Henzell Case RFA was a Pte on enlistment (held a commission previously) whisked off to Officer Training and Commissioned but no indication on his MIC, but was all in his Officer files.

 

As was Temp/Major Thomas Bevan Royal Welsh Fusiliers, was a Private in a Sportsman Battalion, not on his MIC

 

As we all know anything is possible im WW1 record keeping.

 

Andy

Pretty much - back in Dec 14 there was no particular need to record the details as no medals were involved at that time and come 1918/19 there was no need to note the details either as they weren't required.

Presumably the officers record should show any details.

[PRC]

David,

 

I leave it entirely up to you whether you start a new thread, (or re-animate the old one referred to on the Sefton RUFC site).

 

You have a fair selection of the "usual suspects" engaged on this thread,  so good argument for keeping this one going.

 

My line of thought was that a thread with Royal Artillery in the title might attract the attention of our more learned brethren in that area. Additionally having a thread about two individuals could see a number of cross-posts and a narrative that will be difficult to follow.  There are pluses and minuses for either approach, but no wrong answer!

 

All the best,

Peter

[HolymoleyRE]

David, is N Howe referred to as FN Howe in the minutes or other club records?

 

Regards 

 

Andy

[davidbohl]

Andy, apart from the 'Fallen in Action' page in the minutes he is only referred to again as N.Howe in this photie, back row - 4th left.

The photie is from 1910/11, the minutes only began in 1912, but there is a match report in the Echo

THE ALIENS v. CHESTER COLLEGE.

At Clubmoor, in showery weather, Chester started with a faulty kick from the scrum. Griffiths obtained, and kicked tamely into touch. From the line-out Croxford recovered the lost ground with a smart kick but Twist failed to gather the pass, when he had a clear course. Soon after Chester were penalised, and Ellis made a good attempt to goal. Howe then dribbled over, but could not ground. After this Chester made ground, but were driven back, and only a mistake in tactics by Croxford saved their line. Half-time: No score. Final-Aliens 6 points, Chester College 4 points.

Echo 19/10/1912

 

[HolymoleyRE]

Cheers David, once I have had breather 😊, will look into N Howe, a brief look gives Nathaniel Howe from West Derby, Liverpool born 1890, but was a railway carter...not the right stock my guess (service records exist).  

 

There is a 2nd Lt Norman Howe Royal Fusiliers from Gateshead, no overseas service but was SWB'd.

 

A Norman Howe from Macclesfield, Cheshire aged 46 died in 1922, no confirmed service, was a Veterinary and perhaps too old!

 

Lt Norman Howe RAF from Walsall, ran a gents clothes shop..

 

Regards

 

Andy

Edited 27 October , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[daggers]

Putting the full names of F N Howe into Google showed a few links including one from 2008 on this forum, where the indefatigable Dick Flory posted a full note on 2/Lieut Howe.  Our OP on this current thread  also posted.

Howe's name is on the Halewood parish memorial and he was baptised in that parish.  He is also named on the Liverpool Town Hall roll of honour, in each case with both forenames or initials.

 

Dtypo

Edited 27 October , 2017 by daggers

[HolymoleyRE]

I stand corrected on Gateshead, Lt N Howe, aged 32 Royal Fusiliers, 6th Reserve Btn, attached 4th Battalion 3rd Div, treated by 8th Field Ambulance for Shell Shock October 1916....and was subsequently discharged.

 

Looks like he died in 1955, in Northumberland, surely to old for the man in the team photo.

 

Edited 27 October , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[HolymoleyRE]

Ok my head is slightly fried....Trying to pin this to the RF man in the Durham area at the same time and have very close DoBs....

 

We have Norman Howe born 1884 in Gateshead on 1911 Census he is in Stoke Newington, Middlesex as Engineer Constructional died in 1955

 

Then we have ironically a Norman Frederick Howe, from Chiswick, living in Houghton le Spring, Durham in 1911....guess what his profession is...Bank Clerk! Died in 1954.

 

TNA have Lt Norman Howe RF, his MIC gives an address of Saltwell Road Gateshead, so is likely to be the former.

 

I had found a Norman Howe as a Public School boy over Durham way, but can I find him again...

 

Nothing as yet to pull either to Liverpool before 1911 nor indeed teaching and the dates are all wrong looking at the Dave's photos....! But both are clearly migratory!

 

Regards 

 

Andy 

 

 

Edited 27 October , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[PRC]

On ‎24‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 11:17, clk said:

 

On his website, Dave appears to attribute a Fred Appleby writing in 1924:

 

 

Am I missing something here guys? We only have a problem if we take all that as gospel - a statement written some ten years after they last played together and possibly longer - these are the full backs playing for a 1st and possibly 2nd team going back to 1907. I've no doubt that whoever said it genuinely believed it, but some of the rest of the documents are already starting to be called into question. Consider that it also makes good copy for a newspaper and is the stuff of local legends.

 

So an alternative explanation is that someone got their sums wrong, or they confused one of the other players, (or even non-playing club member), who subsequently died with one of the eight. There is scope for confusion - one of the full backs who died is described earlier as also playing forward. Unless the person who made the statement above and the person who wrote the list are the same, then they may not even have been talking about the same eight.

 

From that stand-point I think the focus should be what evidence is there that calls into question that the Royal Field Artillery man played for Sefton RUFC. Is there anything in his Officer's file about his education to indicate that he didn't go to grammar school or public school. Is there an interests section. Who were his referees. Any physical description. Is there a picture of the Artilleryman in the local press - following his commissioning, any wounding or promotion, as well as death, and does it not agree with the pre-war picture of him.. I suspect the MiD garnered an inch or more in the local press.

 

We could spend a lot of time combing the civil records and the military records for possible candidates and trying to marry up the two, but seems like there is a very good candidate already who ticks a lot of boxes.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

[HolymoleyRE]

28 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

We could spend a lot of time combing the civil records and the military records for possible candidates and trying to marry up the two, but seems like there is a very good candidate already who ticks a lot of boxes.

 

Regards,

Peter

 

Good words Peter, and I have been looking for Frederick Norman too...just struck me as odd he is Frederick Norman on all that I have seen other than the Rugby Team...?

 

Andy

[PRC]

28 minutes ago, HolymoleyRE said:

Good words Peter, and I have been looking for Frederick Norman too...just struck me as odd he is Frederick Norman on all that I have seen other than the Rugby Team...?

 

Andy

Andy,

 

In the past I've been a Treasurer and written match reports for the local press for the football teams I've played for, and I've never once asked for sight of a birth certificate or passport as confirmation of someone's full name. Every now and then some abuse would come to light in the region and the County F.A. would ask us to check up, but it was never strictly enforced, you just signed a declaration that you were not signed with any other club under a different name.

 

So if a mate of an existing player turned up and looked useful and said his name was Norman Howe, then that's what he was known as, particularly if he paid his subs :-)

If he scored a goal or made some other important contribution then that's the name that went in the press report.  At the end of the day this was a social institution and people used the names they felt comfortable with.

 

In the more distant pass I use to play Rugby Union as well and I don't think that was run any differently. In both sports I came across instances where "old boys" continued to renew signing with the club and then unofficially letting their names be used for "guest" players.

 

I doubt if Sefton RUFC would have been all that different even if the books were kept by a school-teacher. He, like me, would have reported the facts he believed to be true.

 

N. Howe could be a completely different person but equally likely is that Norman was just his preferred choice of first name - (now watch someone step up straight away and prove me wrong :-) 

 

Cheers,

Peter

[clk]

Hi,

 

I think that the point about being 'officially ' called one name, but being known by another is certainly something that can't be ruled out. Indeed I think that there is an example on the list in the case of Venmore. The CWGC only gives one man of that surname as having died - a Lt. James Frederick Venmore. However, the list shows: 

 

His initial is clearly not a 'J' compared to that of Humphrey or Weights. My money would be on the club knowing him as Fred (or more formally as Frederick) - though the capital 'F' doesn't really look anything like the lower case 'f' used elsewhere.

 

Regards

Chris

[davidbohl]

Lt Venmore seems to have a preferred title of J.Frederick Venmore, see newspaper article here.

His dad was James as well so it might of helped being called Fred in the home to avoid confusion.

 

http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/venmore16.htm

 

Just noticed CGWC have changed their web address structure so all my links are broken again.

[davidbohl]

I think after a very exhaustive thread all I can do is thank everybody for their contributions and time, perhaps the 1921 Census might shed light on the missing link (assuming I'm still here).

I've put a note on the club archives  website with the story so far :-

 

Despite a lengthy thread on the Great War Forum with the best and most knowledgeable of its members there doesn't seem to be a single candidate that fits the constraints left in the minutes.

 

Possibility 1:

 

                           2nd Lt Idwal Ben Humphrey, died of wounds 14th Sept 1916 aged 21 in Salonika.

Born in Liverpool of Welsh lineage he was for a short time on the bank staff at London City and Midland Bank in Castle St.
He was proposed as a member by Gwilym Madoc-Jones, also a Bank Clerk.

(Very likely but can't be proved beyond reasonable doubt at the moment)

 

Possibility 3:

Rifleman J.B.Humphrey

Joined 11th Sept 1914 as Rifleman 2412
Commissioned 3rd Dec 1914
(Details from "A history of the 2/6th (Rifles) Battalion King's Liverpool Regt" by Capt C.E Wurtzburg). (Research continuing)

 

I have left a query on the King's Regiment Association contact page about 2412 Humphrey, J.B

 

[HolymoleyRE]

Hi David, it may be worth noting that Poss 1 & 3 are perhaps the same man, which is my gut feel. GMJ was 1/6th and JBH was 2/6th effectively the same Unit'ish.

 

Hopefully some kind soul will pull IB Humphrey's and FN Howe's Officer files on a visit to the TNA.

 

Andy

[HolymoleyRE]

Guess who pops up in the same book the JB Humphrey is in....2955 Jones GM

 

 

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, davidbohl said:

I think after a very exhaustive thread all I can do is thank everybody for their contributions and time, perhaps the 1921 Census might shed light on the missing link (assuming I'm still here).

I've put a note on the club archives  website with the story so far :-

 

Despite a lengthy thread on the Great War Forum with the best and most knowledgeable of its members there doesn't seem to be a single candidate that fits the constraints left in the minutes.

 

Possibility 1:

 

                           2nd Lt Idwal Ben Humphrey, died of wounds 14th Sept 1916 aged 21 in Salonika.

Born in Liverpool of Welsh lineage he was for a short time on the bank staff at London City and Midland Bank in Castle St.
He was proposed as a member by Gwilym Madoc-Jones, also a Bank Clerk.

(Very likely but can't be proved beyond reasonable doubt at the moment)

 

Possibility 3:

Rifleman J.B.Humphrey

Joined 11th Sept 1914 as Rifleman 2412
Commissioned 3rd Dec 1914
(Details from "A history of the 2/6th (Rifles) Battalion King's Liverpool Regt" by Capt C.E Wurtzburg). (Research continuing)

 

I have left a query on the King's Regiment Association contact page about 2412 Humphrey, J.B

 

 

What does the soldiers effects records show for Idwal Humphrey - if he had time in the ranks then there should be a £5 gratuity payment to reflect that fact.

Craig