daggers Posted 31 October , 2017 Share Posted 31 October , 2017 Well done to the crew! Great result after all the contributions. Daggers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 1 November , 2017 Share Posted 1 November , 2017 (edited) As it turns out the 1924 newspaper report was a Ray Edited 1 November , 2017 by RaySearching reposting picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 1 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2017 A few more bits of information on the King's Liverpool Regt Devereux database, interestingly it has three entries for 2412 but not Idwal B.H. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggers Posted 1 November , 2017 Share Posted 1 November , 2017 The Territorial battalions each had its own numbering system until 1917, which accounts for this apparent triplication, or more. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 1 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 1 November , 2017 Will the real 2nd Lt N.Howe step forward, is this our man with shell shock ? dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 1 November , 2017 Share Posted 1 November , 2017 16 minutes ago, davidbohl said: Will the real 2nd Lt N.Howe step forward, is this our man with shell shock ? dave If we take the wording of the list literally then it shouldn't be this man as he was only ever a 2nd Lt and not Lt. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 1 November , 2017 Share Posted 1 November , 2017 (edited) 2nd Lieut Norman Howe 4th / 6th Royal Fusiliers listed as awarded SWB Number 29142 8th March 1918 Ancestry Link Here Ancestry MIC Here Cannot see a liverpool connection at present Ray Edit Born 1885 1901 electrical engineer 1911 constructional engineer Edited 1 November , 2017 by RaySearching adding info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 1 November , 2017 Share Posted 1 November , 2017 Hi, 3 hours ago, davidbohl said: Will the real 2nd Lt N.Howe step forward, is this our man with shell shock ? dave Set within the caveat that they only seem to show 'regular' rather than TF officers, the WO 338 (long number) free downloads from the National Archives can prove helpful in narrowing down potential candidates. In your case WO 338/10/11 shows 4/7 = 4th battalion, 7th Regiment of Foot. The old fashioned terminology that was stilled used in some record sources for the Royal Fusiliers. To be sure, I think that you'd have to get a copy of his service record from the National Archives (which when searching may show the admin number of 129172) to see if there is reference to sickness/shell shock. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolymoleyRE Posted 1 November , 2017 Share Posted 1 November , 2017 3 hours ago, davidbohl said: Will the real 2nd Lt N.Howe step forward, is this our man with shell shock ? dave He was one of the two Norman Howes living in/from the Gateshead/Durham area at that time I think he was the NE born man living in Stoke Newington on the 1911 census, the other is a Chiswick born man, living in Houghton le Spring, from memory and was a Bank Clerk The RF Officer had a transcribed entry on FWR, neither men have any jumping out at me Liverpool connections. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 1 November , 2017 Share Posted 1 November , 2017 2 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said: He was one of the two Norman Howes living in/from the Gateshead/Durham area at that time I think he was the NE born man living in Stoke Newington on the 1911 census, the other is a Chiswick born man, living in Houghton le Spring, from memory and was a Bank Clerk The RF Officer had a transcribed entry on FWR, neither men have any jumping out at me Liverpool connections. Andy While there two Norman Howe’s on the 1911 census of England and Wales, I was fortunate enough to look at the “right” one first :- 1) Aged 27, born Gateshead, single and recorded as a boarder at 68 Queens Road, Finsbury Park, Stoke Newington, N. London. He worked as a Constructional Engineer for an Iron Moulder(?-tbc) and Engineers. On the 1901 census living in Gateshead, aged 16, and working as an Electrical Engineer, his parents were recorded as Jonathan, (aged 53, Letter Press Printer & Bookbinder, born Gateshead), and Sarah J, (aged 52, born “Not Known”, Cumberland). His married father was recorded on the 1911 census as the head of the household at 4 Saltwell View, Gateshead – that’s the address in the newspaper report. I could not find his mother recorded in England and Wales. The birth of a Norman Howe was recorded in the Gateshead District in the October to December quarter of 1884. If he died in in England and Wales then the only likely match for a Norman Howe born circa 1884, was a 71 year old Norman who died in Q4 of 1955 in the Northumberland North Second District. The 1956 probate calendar records that a Norman Howe of Ash Tree, Thropton, Northumberland, died on the 4th December 1955. Probate was granted to Leonora Ethel Howe, widow, on the 13th January 1956 at the Durham Court. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Howe&yearOfDeath=1956&page=4#calendar (It looks like Leonora was a widow rather than his widow, as there is no obvious marriage to Norman.) Of course could all be co-incidence, but if not,seems to tie him to the North East and he can hardly have been said to have gone under in terms of death by the time of the article in 1924. So still not convinced there is any need to look for anyone beyond the officer already identified but will watch developments with interest J Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 4 November , 2017 Share Posted 4 November , 2017 I've unexpectedly ended up at Kew. Idwal's file is open in front of me. DOB 18th Apr 1895 Applied for a commission 24/8/14 Attested 6th (Rifle) Batt KLR 11/9/14 Number.......2412 Throughout, the 'I' looks like a 'J' Right F.N Howe next.... Can someonegive me an exact link to his file? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTracer44 Posted 4 November , 2017 Share Posted 4 November , 2017 (It looks like Leonora was a widow rather than his widow, as there is no obvious marriage to Norman.) what about Nora Brydon marriage to Norman Howe Sep qtr 1922 Weardale Co Durham could be a possible. Den Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 4 November , 2017 Share Posted 4 November , 2017 Hi, 1 hour ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Can someonegive me an exact link to his file? The link to his file is here Regards Chris If the link doesn't work. it should be... WO 339/69643 2/Lieutenant Frederick Norman HOWE Royal Field Artillery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 4 November , 2017 Share Posted 4 November , 2017 Yes. WO339/69643 Got that. Merseyside man- Halewood. DOB 07/03/ 1888, Halewood. Clerk in African Association Ltd., Liverpool. DOW 25/4/1918 (Interestingly was in the Denbighshire Yeomanry and applied for a commision. The form is signed July 1916, in El-Alamein of all places.) The other chap, Norman Howe of the Royal Fusiliers, DOB 14/09/1884 Badly shell shocked (Inpatient at Craiglockhart for some time). Survived the war Engineer of Gateshead. No mention of Liverpool in his file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 17 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2017 Afternoon everybody, I may have the contender for the 'since gone under' quotation. Hugh William Mitchell, the frail looking lad sitting down on the front row in 1907 http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/s42.jpg Assistant schoolmaster in Liverpool b. 1885 Bristol and died significantly in 1924, also in Bristol. RAMC discharged 1915 and got married soon after. On another note I found a lovely poem written on the day my Grandad's brother Gnr William Bohl died in Salonika, perhaps he was in the same tented field as Idwal Ben. (Salonique ?) A Salonikan Storm Song a poem signed ‘C.M.G’ (actually a Hugh McDairmid) Salonika, 1st September 1916 Sing ho ! for life in the tented field On a night of wind and rain When the sun-baked ground goes suddenly soft And the guy ropes tug and strain And the pegs come up And the tents go down Sing hey, for the winds that vent & blow Sing, hey, for the showers that drown ! Sing ho, for life in the tented field When the lively lightning plays Blinding and brief over red Salonique And the crowded waterways And each bright flash leaves The night still more black Sing ho, for the wild fire over the hills Sing hey, for the thunders that crack ! Sing ho, for life in a tented field On a night of storm and rain Where chaos prevails and everything is In the very deuce of a mess And soaked and muddy and blown about We still can laugh and sing While the rain comes down in bucketfuls And the wild fire has its fling!’ (Christopher Murray Grieve) The same blithe spirit is reflected in ‘A Salonikan Storm Song’, a poem signed ‘C.M.G., Salonika, 1st September 1916’ and sent to brother Andrew. A humorous depiction of the effects of a summer storm on a field hospital http://libraryblogs.is.ed.ac.uk/untoldstories/2015/12/18/macdiarmid-in-thistleonica-a-poem-from-a-forgotten-front/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 Would this be him on the 1911 Census and in the 1924 Probate Calendar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 17 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 17 November , 2017 That's correct, Rosslyn Street is in Toxteth, I assume Alexander is his old man. According to the minutes he resigned "with regret" from the club on 16th June 1920, probably heading back down to Bristol to be with his close family. dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 Hi Dave, As an observation...the SWB record for Hugh indicates that he had no overseas service. I also didn't see a medal roll record. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 8 hours ago, davidbohl said: Afternoon everybody, I may have the contender for the 'since gone under' quotation. Hugh William Mitchell, the frail looking lad sitting down on the front row in 1907 http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/s42.jpg Assistant schoolmaster in Liverpool b. 1885 Bristol and died significantly in 1924, also in Bristol. RAMC discharged 1915 and got married soon after. 10 minutes ago, clk said: Hi Dave, As an observation...the SWB record for Hugh indicates that he had no overseas service. I also didn't see a medal roll record. Regards Chris but later one of them returned quote 'broken in health' and had subsequently died. As the contender indicated by Chris had no overseas service (The new contender had of course not returned from overseas ) ? Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 11 minutes ago, clk said: I also didn't see a medal roll record. National Archive has his MiC under reference WO 372/14/36186 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4082525 If he volunteered for overseas service, which that would seem to imply, then he would have gone out with the 29th Division and taken part in the initial landings at Gallipoli in April 1915, which would give enough time for him to be back in the UK being discharged in July. For a bit more on the unit see http://www.merseysiderollofhonour.co.uk/partinthewar/23.htm regards, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 Peter As in post 115 his medal card (blank) showing no medal entitlement can be found on Ancestry here which will most likely be the one also shown in WO 372/14/36186 of the National Archive His silver war badge also shows no overseas service Unless it can be proven otherwise (no overseas service) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 Hi, 21 minutes ago, RaySearching said: but later one of them returned quote 'broken in health' and had subsequently died. As the contender indicated by Chris had no overseas service (The new contender had of course not returned from overseas ) ? That's really what I was eluding to. I guess that 'returned' might possibly be something like returned to his home town from deployment elsewhere in the UK, but in isolation the total comment would seem to imply something else. Would a man serving in the UK be described as returning 'so broken in health'? I guess that it's for Dave to decide. 44 minutes ago, PRC said: National Archive has his MiC under reference WO 372/14/36186 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4082525 Without spending any money on it, like Ray, I very much suspect that the card associated with WO 372/14/36186 is the SWB card already posted rather than a British War/Victory Medal card. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 17 November , 2017 Share Posted 17 November , 2017 15 minutes ago, clk said: Without spending any money on it, like Ray, I very much suspect that the card associated with WO 372/14/36186 is the SWB card already posted rather than a British War/Victory Medal card. Without a subscription to Ancestry I can't check that source, but taking a look at the pixelated version on the National Archive site I have to agree - apologies folks, I wasn't even aware these cards were also stored in the WO 372 series. So more likely he served with the 2nd line unit of the 1st Field Ambulance, (or the 1st/2nd, or 1st/3rd), all of which I believe remained in the UK past the point where Hugh left the Army. He could still of course have been traumatised \ suffered physical injury \ contracted illness, as a result of home service, so he would still have been returning from active service in a broken condition. regards, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 18 November , 2017 Share Posted 18 November , 2017 4 hours ago, PRC said: So more likely he served with the 2nd line unit of the 1st Field Ambulance, (or the 1st/2nd, or 1st/3rd), all of which I believe remained in the UK past the point where Hugh left the Army. He could still of course have been traumatised \ suffered physical injury \ contracted illness, as a result of home service, so he would still have been returning from active service in a broken condition. regards, Peter Quite true Peter, which still leaves Hugh as a contender Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbohl Posted 18 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 18 November , 2017 Excellent analysis as ever chaps. His medal card says "sick", that sounds more physical than mental, what does King's regs para 392 XVI say, does it expand the meaning of the word for us ? I've checked the playing records for the 1919-20 season before he left us and he never crossed the whitewash. If he never went overseas would he have served perhaps on the docks unloading the wounded coming back from the front. Being of slight build he may have picked up some kind of lurgy from those poor guys and couldn't shake it off. dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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