Jim Hastings Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 38 minutes ago, Medaler said: Last night - Once more a huge "well done" from me. The only problem I have with it is that the BBC should have given it 6 hours rather than 3. Mike Couldn't agree more Mike, I don't know what Peter, Jeremy, Mick & the rest of the team have planned next, but I can't wait. Good work all! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 1 hour ago, phil andrade said: ... Peter Barton knows how to do this better than any other historian when it comes to the Great War ... That got me thinking. The media use very few historians when it comes to the Great War. Barton, Snow and Oliver are the only ones I can think of who are repeatedly used to front or be the centre of programmes. Sheffield and a few other academics feature quite often but not as the front men. Who else is there these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 Could I ask everyone to avoid saying who won, please. I've not seen it yet and I don't want to spoil the ending. Thanks. 11 minutes ago, Roger H said: The only thing I can't understand is why Seadog bothers watching. Roger Pays his licence fee. It's being so cheerful as keeps him going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 1 hour ago, Chris_Baker said: That got me thinking. The media use very few historians when it comes to the Great War. Barton, Snow and Oliver are the only ones I can think of who are repeatedly used to front or be the centre of programmes. Sheffield and a few other academics feature quite often but not as the front men. Who else is there these days? I don't know about the others, but is that a fair description of Peter Barton - 'used to front programmes'? However much the BBC insisted on their shaping of this series, Peter does his own research and I think he produced that marvellous programme about the Somme poets, 'War of Words', himself. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 41 minutes ago, Chris_Baker said: That got me thinking. The media use very few historians when it comes to the Great War. Barton, Snow and Oliver are the only ones I can think of who are repeatedly used to front or be the centre of programmes. Sheffield and a few other academics feature quite often but not as the front men. Who else is there these days? Simon Schama, David Starkey and Niall Feruson have all been on parade while dealing with Great War topics, and we must not forget David Reynolds. Others will come to mind, I'm sure. But I've yet to see anyone to beat Peter Barton, and I really don't think he's been rivalled, either. As Liz remarks, his documentary War of Words exemplifies how good he is. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Filsell Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 To my undying shame - having spent a good amount of the day working with figures (the numerical sort - which is not my strong point) I nodded off about half way through. It was me entirely at fault not the programme. I will of course play catch up but thought my shame should be noted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev2386 Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 For the layman, like me, this is an excellent series. I have read, watched and researched various items on The Great War, but each new one seems to educate me a little more. There was, however, a heart stopping moment in last nights programme. The story of John Dewsbury, 2nd Bn, The Sherwood Foresters, who's "letter from the grave" was read out. The name rang a bell with me so I delved into my medal research. Sure enough, I had the papers and the trio for him. But my records showed that he was in the 1st Bn, not the 2nd. I also had the record of his marriage in 1920! How many John Dewsbury's were there in the N&D's? Then all became clear when his name was shown on the Thiepval memorial. This was Dewsbury, my man was a Jewsbury! Trev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bart150 Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 To leave the French out of the programme was not in itself necessarily a bad decision IMO. But it certainly was a bad decision if the programme-makers had something particularly interesting to say about the French – for example, that the French used different tactics from the British and achieved better results. I wonder, in an open-minded way, whether that was the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 PB hammered home the point that the Germans were extremely self critical and that tactics changed markedly as a result. This contrasted strongly with the British attitude shown in a recent thread where criticism was positively discouraged. Is there anything to account for this difference in the attitudes of the commands towards criticism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 Trev Worth delving a little more into the name problem. PB mentioned that a 'further' anglicised change to his name changed it from Dewsburg to Dewsbury. However, the family mentioned in the end credits were Duesbury. Wonder how many permutations of name change he may have gone through. Marriage in 1920 would need resolving. Any known connection to Swinefleet? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 1 hour ago, Liz in Eastbourne said: ... is that a fair description of Peter Barton - 'used to front programmes'? ... I was making no point about the individual's merits or capabilities, simply trying to think of those historians that are used in such a role. I've not watched this series (frankly I hardly ever watch TV Great War stuff) but have enjoyed Peter Barton's previous work that I have seen. Is it not a pity, though, that we do not see a few more of the many talented military/war historians that are out there - the dozens that have gained degrees at Birmingham, Wolverhampton, King's College etc, to say nothing of the extraordinary depth of knowledge, and quite possibly broadcasting talent, among those who are not associated with academia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 Yes, that's a perennial problem in every sphere, not just WW1 - TV is so unadventurous in giving new people a voice. Radio (in which I used to work) is better, but not immune. I suppose I was reacting not just against the phrase but against your lumping Peter Barton with Snow! He's by no means so often seen, and only in his own specialist area. Liz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelPack Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 1 hour ago, TEW said: Worth delving a little more into the name problem. DEWSBURY, JOHN Rank: Private Service No:18260 Date of Death:15/09/1916 Regiment/Service:Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment) 2nd Bn. Panel Reference: Pier and Face 10 C 10 D and 11 A. Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL SDGW Name: John Dewsbury Birth Place: Goole, Yorks Residence: Goole, Yorks Death Date: 15 Sep 1916 Death Place: France and Flanders Enlistment Place: Mansfield, Yorks Rank: Private Regiment: Notts and Derby (Sherwood Foresters) Regiment Battalion: 2nd Battalion Regimental Number: 18260 Type of Casualty: Killed in action Theatre of War: Western European Theatre Soldier's Effects has mother Mary E as the sole legatee Family in 1901 Census: Name:John Wm Dewsbury Age:10 Estimated birth year :abt 1891 Relation to Head: Son Gender:Male Father:John Dewsbury Mother:Mary Ellen Dewsbury Birth Place :Swinefleet, Yorkshire, Name Age John Dewsbury 33 Mary Ellen Dewsbury 32 John Wm Dewsbury 10 Isabella Dewsbury 8 Ernest Dewsbury 6 Edith Dewsbury 2 Father's birth registration in Jun 1868 has the surname of Duesbury, and likewise for the marriage in Mar qtr 1891 and the census returns for 1871, 1881, 1891 and 1911. Paternal grandparents of the soldier appear under the surname of Densberg in the 1851 census. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev2386 Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 20 minutes ago, TEW said: Trev Worth delving a little more into the name problem. PB mentioned that a 'further' anglicised change to his name changed it from Dewsburg to Dewsbury. However, the family mentioned in the end credits were Duesbury. Wonder how many permutations of name change he may have gone through. Marriage in 1920 would need resolving. Any known connection to Swinefleet? TEW TEW, according to my records, my man was born and lived in Hucknall, Notts. Married and died in Basford, Notts. There doesn't appear to be any links to Yorks. Census records state that the name might be double-barrelled, but not hyphenated, as Chell Jewsbury. Apologies for being off topic, Trev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 40 minutes ago, Bart150 said: To leave the French out of the programme was not in itself necessarily a bad decision IMO. But it certainly was a bad decision if the programme-makers had something particularly interesting to say about the French – for example, that the French used different tactics from the British and achieved better results. I wonder, in an open-minded way, whether that was the case. Was that the case ? Yes, By Jove ! The French captured twenty per cent more prisoners than the British during the entire battle, and took fewer than half the casualties in doing so. They had, of course, been through the sternest of tutorials at Verdun, learning how to disperse manpower and maximise firepower. Hence my discomfiture that this wasn't alluded to in the programme. It wouldn't have been necessary to dwell on the French ; but to pretty well ignore them does rather diminish the effect. To be fair to the team that worked on getting this to us, they are keenly aware of this deficiency but have been overruled by the" Powers that be". Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 Really good and well balanced programme. I do hope the 11th Div get a mention in part 3 - Battle of Thiepval 26th September Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trev2386 Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 14 minutes ago, MelPack said: DEWSBURY, JOHN Rank: Private Service No:18260 Date of Death:15/09/1916 Regiment/Service:Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment) 2nd Bn. Panel Reference: Pier and Face 10 C 10 D and 11 A. Memorial: THIEPVAL MEMORIAL SDGW Name: John Dewsbury Birth Place: Goole, Yorks Residence: Goole, Yorks Death Date: 15 Sep 1916 Death Place: France and Flanders Enlistment Place: Mansfield, Yorks Rank: Private Regiment: Notts and Derby (Sherwood Foresters) Regiment Battalion: 2nd Battalion Regimental Number: 18260 Type of Casualty: Killed in action Theatre of War: Western European Theatre Soldier's Effects has mother Mary E as the sole legatee Family in 1901 Census: Name:John Wm Dewsbury Age:10 Estimated birth year :abt 1891 Relation to Head: Son Gender:Male Father:John Dewsbury Mother:Mary Ellen Dewsbury Birth Place :Swinefleet, Yorkshire, Name Age John Dewsbury 33 Mary Ellen Dewsbury 32 John Wm Dewsbury 10 Isabella Dewsbury 8 Ernest Dewsbury 6 Edith Dewsbury 2 It doesn't help that my man was John William and his mother was also Mary! The other names and ages don't match though, Trev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastSurrey Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 I thought it was very good. My only quibble was the apparent suggestion that British PoWs were all well treated. I would suggest that even if treated well near the front and by intelligence officers, they did not fare well on the journey to Germany and were often badly treated in the camps and on work details, quite apart from being poorly fed ( although I recognise the shortage of food for the Germans.) Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 Must admit that I have reports which show they were badly treated and some even killed. Like everything, it all depended on who found you. It seemed to suggest that the Germans were lovely and helpful but the British were ill treating prisoners all of the time. People watching who do not understand warfare of any type would get the wrong impression. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Wood Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 2 hours ago, phil andrade said: Simon Schama, David Starkey and Niall Feruson have all been on parade while dealing with Great War topics, and we must not forget David Reynolds. Others will come to mind, I'm sure. But I've yet to see anyone to beat Peter Barton, and I really don't think he's been rivalled, either. As Liz remarks, his documentary War of Words exemplifies how good he is. Phil How could you possibly forget Baldrick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil andrade Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 53 minutes ago, Phil Wood said: How could you possibly forget Baldrick? Not forgetting Baldrick, especially his trench cappuccino coffee ! Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIFFO Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 have watched 1-2 and am waiting for 3,I cannot understand why PB hasn't made/fronted a programme on the glory hole as he appears to have been one of the main people driving on the project Biffo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartH Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 11 minutes ago, BIFFO said: have watched 1-2 and am waiting for 3,I cannot understand why PB hasn't made/fronted a programme on the glory hole as he appears to have been one of the main people driving on the project Biffo I doubt if they would get access now, but wasn't something done earlier. Recently re watched the Somme War Walk, Richard Holmes conveys in half an hours more than all the others have done put together. I am surprised the 50th anniversary programme with Leo McKern has not been re shown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horrocks Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 22 minutes ago, BIFFO said: have watched 1-2 and am waiting for 3,I cannot understand why PB hasn't made/fronted a programme on the glory hole as he appears to have been one of the main people driving on the project Biffo He has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz in Eastbourne Posted 26 July , 2016 Share Posted 26 July , 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, horrocks said: He has. Yes - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01skvnh Not available on i-Player at present, unfortunately, Liz Edited 26 July , 2016 by Liz in Eastbourne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now