Info on this famous photo!

[Simon_Fielding]

3 hours ago, KevinBattle said:

 

 

There is a facial resemblance to th Hopkins photo, so could there have been another brother in a Pioneer battalion on the Somme? 

 

Possibly - none resident on the farm in 1911 or mentioned in the article... 

[trajan]

15 hours ago, KevinBattle said:

... Otherwise we risk going round in circles and will soon end up with a better idenitity for the PoW than the Brits! ... Is there anyone who might be able to identify anything about the PoW's uniform, badges etc - apart from him being a smoker?

 

Sadly nothing at all distinctive there, as he has covered his national cockade with a band, so we can't say if he is Prussian or what, and his epaulettes aren't visible. However, there is strong chance he is not from a Saxon unit as his bluse has Brandenburg cuffs.

[clk]

Hi,

 

Re the man alleged to be Joseph James Hopkins

 

19 hours ago, KevinBattle said:

...could there have been another brother in a Pioneer battalion on the Somme?

 

I don't think so. The 1911 census shows that Joseph and his wife were married circa 1879, and that by 1911 there were 7 children, 6 still living. Going backwards, the children appear to be:

1911 - Delia (age 23); Daisy (age 20); and Joseph James (age 18)

1901 - same children named

1891 - Anna?? (daughter, age 9); Mary (age 7); Henrietta (age 5); Delia (age 2); and a infant daughter (age1 week) - presumably Daisy

1881 - Cordelia (age 1)

 

The 7 children noted in the 1911 census would seem to be those shown in green - 6 daughters, but only 1 son.

 

On the basis of the information we currently have, I don't think that we'll be able to say who the man is, other than it's not who the family think it is.

 

Regards

Chris

[TEW]

Well, just to re-cap: Dallimore's sequence of Lancashire Fusiliers battalions taken from BWM & Vict roll is 3rd, 1st, 10th, then 11th. (see post29 for explanation).

 

We know he died serving with the 11th Battalion 7th June 1917 but it was never established when he transferred from 1st to 10th to 11th. He does show on WO casualty list 25th Aug 1916 (battalion not shown). How can we be sure which battalion he was with in July 1916? He may have been posted to 11th LF after the injury July/Aug 1916.

 

10th LF were in Villers sur Ailly 16th-23rd July, training and re-organization.

1st LF were holding Canal Bank, Fargate, Harkness and Flash Point Trenches which I think were up near Ypres.

 

74th Infantry Brigade and 11th Lancashire Fusiliers diaries are slightly at odds. At 12.30am on the 16th two companies of 11/LF assembled as support in the push towards Ovillers. (See Map below). The other 2 Companies were in reserve in La Boiselle. 11/LF diary doesn't seem to mention this.

 

Anyway, the upshot is that the 11/LF diary contains a detailed casualty list for their actions 7th, 8th & 9th July and 15th/16th July. KIA, Missing, Wounded and Wounded/Missing. 4351 Dallimore is not on their list. The numbers given in 74th Brigade diary for 11/LF casualties tallies with the detailed list in 11/LF diary. So the 20 listed as missing in one dairy are all named in the other.

 

In fact the 74 Brigade list showing 15 Killed, 20 Missiing and 54 wounded ORs for 11/LF 15th/16th tallies exactly with list in 11/LF diary.

 

Secondly, I've included a map to show the assembly line [X.9-X.15] for the 11/LF 12.30am on 16th July and the direction of push with arrow tips on final objectives. There are some additional actions for squads of bombers from 11/LF to assist 2/RIR but these are all on SE side of Ovillers during the 16th.

 

25 ADMS diary gives locations of MDS, ADS and 2 Aid Posts for 8th July which suggests they were still in place on the 16th. These are mainly in Albert with one post in W.24.d.

 

The other + sign in X.29.b is the location of the 63rd FA ADS on the 17th July 1916 which is where the wounded men in Brooke's photo are heading to, according to the caption.

 

Extract from the 11/LF diary for 14th-17th July.

11/Lancs WO95/2246/2

14th July 1916

Paraded 10.30 AM & proceeded to USNA HILL & bivouacked there from 1.0 PM to 8.20 PM when proceeded to trenches in LA BOISELLE. The battalion was attached here as support to 7th infantry brigade who were attacking OVILLERS-LA-BOISELLE.  Attack failed at 11 PM & a second attack in which B & A Coys. 11/Lancs took part in at 2.00AM also failed. Operation Orders & Casualties attached.

 

15th July 1916

A, B & C Coys. Returned to LA BOISELLE to dugouts as support. 74th brigade relieved 7th infantry brigade, during afternoon, this battalion still remaining in support.

 

16th July 1916

Day fairly quiet. Gun artillery continuously shelled OVILLERS. About Midday, Brigade ordered 3 bombing squads & 1 officer to be sent up to reinforce 2/RIR. These squads attacked the enemy by bombing down the communication trench & by firing rifle grenades. At 6.45 PM the enemy raised the white flag & 2 officers & 128 other ranks surrendered to our bombing officer 2/Lt/ M. A. Callaghan. Enemy trench occupied & consolidated by [our men & the 2/RIR] & touch picked up with 1/5th Warwick Regt.

Bde. Relieved during the night & Bn. Proceeded to billets at BOUZINCOURT arriving about 6.0am.

 

17th July 1916

Paraded 4.30 PM & proceeded to new billets at FORCVEVILLE via Hedauville. Arriving about 6.30PM

 

 

TEW

Edited 26 October , 2019 by TEW
Re-place image

[stevem49]

I presume she knew her Gt Gt Uncles name and it is also the same as CWGC - Edmund.

Bob - were did you get Edward from?

 

Steve M

[trajan]

1 hour ago, stevem49 said:

I presume she knew her Gt Gt Uncles name and it is also the same as CWGC - Edmund.

Bob - were did you get Edward from?

 

See. e.g., post 44

[9.5mm]

The earliest press use of the Brooks photo appears to be the 21st July (Daily Mirror). Given that Brooke was not made an official photographer until the 2nd July the scene must have been shot by both photographers within this time frame. If pushed, I'd say not later than the 18th/19th July 1916. 

[mancpal]

Harvey,

 

Just look what you've started! Well done and how's the metal detecting?

 

Regards 

 

Simon

[Guest Oldhamgirl]

Edmund Dillamore was my grandads brother This photo was on the wall of my grandparents house. I have a photo of him as a young boy with his parents and brothers and sisters. His mother saw this photo when passing the news office and was glad he was safe only to discover later that he had been sent back to the front and later killed in action imagine her feelings.? That moving photo would have been her last image of her son.His brother had a son also called Edmund.

[michaeldr]

On 7/27/2016 at 00:07, 9.5mm said:

 Brooke was not made an official photographer until the 2nd July 

Brooke was an Official Photographer almost from the beginning of the war

He commenced with the Admiralty and then moved over to the War Office in mid-1916

[TEW]

1 hour ago, Oldhamgirl said:

Edmund Dillamore was my grandads brother This photo was on the wall of my grandparents house. I have a photo of him as a young boy with his parents and brothers and sisters. His mother saw this photo when passing the news office and was glad he was safe only to discover later that he had been sent back to the front and later killed in action imagine her feelings.? That moving photo would have been her last image of her son.His brother had a son also called Edmund.

 

Any chance of seeing the photo of Dillamore as a young boy?

 

TEW

[Guest Oldhamgirl]

Would be happy to supply photo but do not know how to do it oldhamgirl

[9.5mm]

5 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Brooke was an Official Photographer almost from the beginning of the war

He commenced with the Admiralty and then moved over to the War Office in mid-1916

 

You're not the first and certainly won't be the last to confuse Ernest Brooks with John Warwick Brooke. I've done it myself...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[michaeldr]

Obviously my spelling mistake has not helped here 

my Brooke should indeed be Brooks

He commenced with the Admiralty photographing for them at Gallipoli in 1915

before transferring to the Army in 1916 and working for them on the Western Front.

 

Thank you for pointing out John Warwick Brooke of whom I was previously ignorant

 

regards

Michael

 

[TEW]

Photo of Edmund Dillamore sent by oldhamgirl with comparison of later photo.

 

 

 

TEW

 

[richardIII]

What a brilliant initial post this was, it takes a very well known picture and the depth of knowledge that has come out as a result of this is extraordinary, very well done to all involved.

Richard

[TEW]

It's certainly astounding that 2 individuals have come forward and said 'this is my ancestor' and that both families identified him from a photo in 1916 and procured a copy of the photo.

 

From the two side by side photos above I certainly couldn't say they are not the same person.

 

Going back to what I said in post#104 which makes it difficult to place Dillamore in the location/date for the photo. There must be other circumstances that have been missed somewhere.

 

Brooke and Brooks captioned their almost identical photos with different locations and dates, perhaps both got it a bit wrong. Either that or Dillamore lay out wounded for some time and wandered off in the wrong direction to be picked up as a wounded straggler, not an impossible scenario.

 

Would be nice to clarify that he was with 11/Lancs in July 1916 which would at least place him circa 3000 yards from where Brooke says his photo was taken.

TEW

[Harvey H]

On 26 July 2016 at 22:25, mancpal said:

Harvey,

 

Just look what you've started! Well done and how's the metal detecting?

 

Regards 

 

Simon

Yes I know mate! The digging is going well pal, been at a dump site for the army a bit ago, still cleaning relics haha

 

Sorry everyone for my absence on this thread, I've been away and very busy so k apologise. I'm afraid that this is way out of my depth of knowledge to help anymore, but I'm very glad I've posted it to help!

[TheRichTurner]

The man on the white helmet was my great uncle Joseph (Joe) Hopkins. He was a farmer from Egerton in Kent. He survived the war and died in a car accident in the 1930s.

[TheRichTurner]

Here's a bad picture of the framed one on my parent's wall that's from the same sequence. The man in the white helmet is my great Uncle Joe Hopkins. I can supply a better copy later if anyone's interested.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Hi RichTurner,

Thanks for your post.

You mean Man No6. in this numbered  version of the other photo?:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/topic/241060-info-on-this-famous-photo/?do=findComment&comment=2421679

 

He has previously been identified in this and another thread as Joe Hopkins.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/topic/216776-soldiers-on-book-cover-indentified/

Are you related to the BBC producer?

[TheRichTurner]

Oh Gosh, I'll try to delete my posts, as the info I'm trying to provide is already in there. I'll leave the photo I sent in though, as I haven't seen any other copy of that particular one, taken obviously around the same time.

[TheRichTurner]

14 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Hi RichTurner,

Thanks for your post.

You mean Man No6. in this numbered  version of the other photo?:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/topic/241060-info-on-this-famous-photo/?do=findComment&comment=2421679

 

He has previously been identified in this and another thread as Joe Hopkins.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/topic/216776-soldiers-on-book-cover-indentified/

Are you related to the BBC producer?

 

Thanks. Yes, soldier number 6, and yes, I am that BBC producer. To be more accurate, I'm freelance, but at this very moment I'm (supposed to be) working for them. I've only just realized that so much of the info was in the forum already. I saw the poster for the show 'Forgotten Voices' in Edinburgh with the edited photo and got in touch with the production, and they asked me to take a call from a journalist, which I did, but it was all such a blur as I was insanely busy at the time. I didn't know his regiment. I knew his son, Roland Hopkins, who inherited the farm. It's still a small family farm. I have fond childhood memories of summers there. The photo I uploaded i unique in this thread, I think. We have an "original" (bought from the newspaper) at my parents' in Kent.

[TheRichTurner]

On 7/18/2016 at 23:43, clk said:

Hi,

 

When I looked at the service record for 160493 Joseph James Hopkins, his address shown on in his papers would appear to confirm that he is the same man referred to in the newspaper report. As previously mentioned though he doesn't appear to have been mobilised until May 1917, not going abroad until the end of July 1917, and only served in theatre with 155 Siege Battery RGA, and later 327 Siege Battery RGA. The two entries being separated by an entry from 1st June 1918 which seems to read "1/1 S.A.R.B". I don't know what unit that refers to, but guess that it might refer to a posting to a UK based unit following his wounding in April 1918. In any case I can't see anything to suggest that he was in theatre when the photo was purportedly taken in 1916, nor if (big if) it were taken later anything to explain what would appear to be the pioneer collar insignia in the photo.

 

Question is, which Pal is erudite and diplomatic enough (not me!) to contact the newspaper (and by association the family) to say that the information doesn't stack up to the story?

 

Regards

Chris

I can take it. You don't need to be diplomatic. The truth is more important than the claim. However, that photo was on the mantelpiece at Newland Green farm even when Joe was still alive.

[TheRichTurner]

On 7/20/2016 at 12:09, clk said:

Hi,

 

Re the man alleged to be Joseph James Hopkins

 

 

I don't think so. The 1911 census shows that Joseph and his wife were married circa 1879, and that by 1911 there were 7 children, 6 still living. Going backwards, the children appear to be:

1911 - Delia (age 23); Daisy (age 20); and Joseph James (age 18)

1901 - same children named

1891 - Anna?? (daughter, age 9); Mary (age 7); Henrietta (age 5); Delia (age 2); and a infant daughter (age1 week) - presumably Daisy

1881 - Cordelia (age 1)

 

The 7 children noted in the 1911 census would seem to be those shown in green - 6 daughters, but only 1 son.

 

On the basis of the information we currently have, I don't think that we'll be able to say who the man is, other than it's not who the family think it is.

 

Regards

Chris

The Henrietta aged 5 in the 1891 census is my great grandmother. I can't help wondering why my family had that photo on their mantelpiece for so many years, but maybe they were wrong.