Info on this famous photo!

[keithmroberts]

Soldiers died, and soldiers effects both have Edward, with the Effects going to his Father, George.

[Harvey H]

Well his MIC says Edward, but the lady believe Edmund, however the family called him Teddy, which is short for Edward. So I don't know. I have some documents that might help so hold fire.

[Harvey H]

But the file restrictions on here might not let me post them

[clk]

Hi,

 

His 14/15 Star was issued from the 1st Battalion roll, However, his British War Medal and Victory Medal roll entry (under a first name of Edward) lists his service in active theatre in the order 3rd, 1st, 10th, then 11th. The 3rd (Reserve) Battalion didn't serve overseas though - see the LLT. I presume that he arrived at the Base Depot in Egypt as a 3rd Battalion man, and was reassigned there to the 1st Battalion. The FMP record* TEW refers to in post #20 is a list of men's names and postings on mobilisation (a Regiment/Battalion) isn't shown. It records "4351 E. Dillamore" joining 'B' Company from the Special Reserve on 8th August 1914. I guess that would probably be 'B'Coy. 3rd Battalion.

 

For clarification, are we talking about the man far right in the foreground, or far right in the background?

 

Regards

Chris

 

*Edit: Looking at the FMP record in the file of the man it's actually in (9745 Shaw), rather than the page linked to his record, further pages are shown, which confirm it does relate to the 3rd Battalion.

[Harvey H]

Hi clk, we are talking about the far right man in the foreground with his arm in a sling and a blackened face. And I'll pass the info on. Would you say its Edmund or Edward? 

[Harvey H]

Im trying to upload these images from documents in the family that she has, but theyre too big even after a double compression ugh

[BillyH]

Don't compress them,  re-size them.

 

BillyH.

[Harvey H]

I'll try, it's just the family requesting a photo of his grave, and the document they received as a reply.

[TEW]

Every man remembered site has this photo attached to Dillamore's page.

 

http://www.everymanremembered.org/profiles/soldier/444235/

 

Just tried Dallimore with no number in FMP and there may be another sheet.

 

9 days to ID some more from the Photo?? Or location?

 

Wonder which paper it was reproduced in and what the  caption may have been.

 

Are they walking uphill and is there a remnant of a trolley line on the left of photo?

 

Does the man left foreground (IWM copy) have SR or SB on his left arm?

 

TEW

 

 

[Harvey H]

3 minutes ago, TEW said:

9 days to ID some more from the Photo?? Or location?

Firstly, not sure what you mean by this?

 

3 minutes ago, TEW said:

Are they walking uphill and is there a remnant of a trolley line on the left of photo?

Uphill it seems, not sure about the trolley line.

 

4 minutes ago, TEW said:

Does the man left foreground (IWM copy) have SR or SB on his left arm?

SB it looks like, Strecther Bearer?

 

 

[KevinBattle]

 

Not sure where little bob got his info from, he's usually pretty good, but as Harvey said, CWGC shows:- 

DILLAMORE, EDMUND. Rank: Private. Service No: 3/4351. Date of Death: 07/06/1917. Age: 22.
Regiment/Service: Lancashire Fusiliers 11th Bn. 
Grave Reference: II. L. 5. Cemetery: ST. QUENTIN CABARET MILITARY CEMETERY.
Additional Information: Son of George and Mary Dillamore, of 263, Henshaw St., Oldham, Lancs.

He may have been an Acting Lance Corporal, but not confirmed, as he was still a Private at his death in 1917.

 

The Long, Long Trail info:-

74th Brigade, 25th Division. From formation to the end of the Spring Offensive, March 1918.

11th Battalion, Lancashire Fusiliers (Disbanded August 1918)
13th Battalion, Cheshire Regiment (Disbanded August 1918)
8th Battalion, East Lancashire Regiment (Left November 1918)
8th Battalion, Loyal North Lancashire Regiment (Left October 1915)
9th Battalion, Loyal North Lancashire Regiment (Left June 1918)
2nd Battalion, Royal Irish Rifles (Joined October 1915, left November 1917)
3rd Battalion, Worcestershire Regiment (Joined November 1917, left June 1918)
74th Machine Gun Company (Joined March 1916, transferred to 25th MG Btn in March 1918)
74th Trench Mortar Battery (Formed June 1916)

 

The Battle of Albert (a phase of the Battles of the Somme 1916)
Ovillers. Another attack on this village by the 12th Div ended in total failure at a cost of 2,400 casualties. North of Ovillers, the 32nd Div reinforced by 75 Bde of 25th Div attacked the Leipzig Redoubt near Authuille Wood. There was utter confusion over start times and the 32nd Div attack consisted of only two companies of the Highland Light Infantry. After two attempts no gains were made. The rest of the Division relieved 32nd Division in the night of 3/4 July. More localised and equally ineffective attacks were made. On 5 July, 74th Brigade was detached for duty with 12th (Eastern) Division at La Boisselle, where it took part in an attack on Ovillers. 

 

Without a comparative photo of Edmund, there's no reason to destroy the family's belief that it was "their" relative, he's almost out of shot and it could "easily" be him, as we have no real proof of the accuracy of the date and location in the caption, apparently errors have been made in captioning other photos, so could apply here.

 

I'd suggest that the man they identified as Edmund is more likely to be on the left of the 5 men in the foreground, with the heavily bandaged right arm, as he is could clearly be identified, not the one on the extreme right with a leg wound, who could be anybody.

 

EDIT: Apologies, folks, went away for a bit and more posts arrived in the meantime...

[little bob]

As Keith says both Soldiers  Died and Soldiers Effects give his name as  Edward.  MIC , Edward   Medal Roll for British War and Victory medals, Edward.

 

Bob

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Harvey H said:

Hi clk, we are talking about the far right man in the foreground with his arm in a sling and a blackened face. And I'll pass the info on. Would you say its Edmund or Edward? 

To avoid confusion as to which man we are referring to, and whether the right is on the left or vice versa, I have numbered each man, including the German POW:

 

[Harvey H]

Wow, I'm also happy that a heap of info has come out of this. Not that someone will, but I also would have liked in the future for this info to have been spread and appear in books in a caption of the picture. Yes he's the one without a helmet, heavily bandaged arm, jacket open, on the men's left. In the foreground, almost walking on his own, while others are supported by who is believed to be Pizey.

He's number 7

[KevinBattle]

If you Google "wounded soldiers near Bernafay Wood 1916" and then look at the images, a colour photo of just the German and the 2 men (Pizzey? and Pioneer) to the PoW's right are alone, nothing else in sight, clearly showing the light railway track lines. It must have been taken prior to the other men and cavalry passing by, there is nothing else in shot to the far distance. The photo has the capital letters DOUG in the bottom right.

The stance of the three is virtually identical, except the Pioneer has his right foot behind, not in front.

 

There's also yet another of the 3 centre stage with a group of British troops coming up behind, 3 with officer type caps but looking rather dishevelled...more walking wounded perhaps. Teddy not visible in that, but same 3 men in virtually the same posture.

[chaz]

its not the first time CWGC have a forename (or even surname) wrong, I know of one trying to get changed. Edmund or Edward, probably how the transcriber read or processed and typed.

[TEW]

And a higher res one, Marks on Brodies of 2 & 4 showing better, 2 has a rather spooky look zoomed in!

 

Brooks was apparently known for 'arranging' shots, perhaps he tried a few compositions.

TEW

http://www.army.mod.uk/firstworldwarresources/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/06/100558.jpg

[little bob]

Find my Past

 

Manchester Evening News  Thursday August 2 1917.

Private Edmund Dillamore Lancashire Fusiliers, 263 Henshaw Street killed on 7 June.

The plot thickens.

 

Bob

 

 

 

 

[clk]

Hi,

 

2 hours ago, little bob said:

As Keith says both Soldiers  Died and Soldiers Effects give his name as  Edward.  MIC , Edward   Medal Roll for British War and Victory medals, Edward.

 

Bob

 

...and the GRO Index to War Deaths has him as Edward. However, his birth registration, his 1901 census and 1911 census records all appear to be under the name of Edmund. It seems likely then that he was born Edmund, but served as Edward - perhaps he didn't like his given name, who knows?

 

1 hour ago, chaz said:

its not the first time CWGC have a forename (or even surname) wrong, I know of one trying to get changed. Edmund or Edward, probably how the transcriber read or processed and typed.

 

Not necessarily a mistake by the CWGC. From what I understand details of the name/death/unit, etc were taken from service/army records, which were then put on to a verification form which was sent to the NoK. The family would confirm the details, and say what epitaph (if any) they wanted on the stone (initially chargeable by the number of letters - but ultimately not enforced). It is at least possible that the verification form was sent out under the name of Edward, but they changed it to how they knew him, and what they wanted him to be remembered as.

 

Regards

Chris

[KevinBattle]

We can take it that the family returned the Verification Form as there is Additional Information etc...

Surely one or other of his parents would have known if Edmund was the wrong name and changed it to Edward, if that was his correct name....

[clk]

Hi,

 

2 minutes ago, KevinBattle said:

We can take it that the family returned the Verification Form as there is Additional Information etc...

Surely one or other of his parents would have known if Edmund was the wrong name and changed it to Edward, if that was his correct name....

 

Yes, certainly the form was returned as there is a "bespoke" epitaph, but my guess is that as all the military records available seem to have him as Edward, the form would have been sent out under that name, and the family amended it to his "civilian" name.

 

Whilst there is some confusion over his first name, I don't think there is any doubt that Edmund/Edward is one in the same person.

 

Regards

Chris 

[Harvey H]

I'm very happy to see all you fellas researching him, but I feel ashamed of myself as it seems I've just given you the info and said here tell me everything, what can I do?

[clk]

Hi Harvey,

 

Don't feel ashamed. Everyone who contributes does so because they like to help, and as long (per your profile) "it's just a pleasure to learn", you are, then everyone will be well happy. The more that you become aware of where people are drawing their info sources from, the more you will be able to help others in the future - payback time!!

 

What I think that you could be doing at the moment is thinking about how you are going to make sense of all the stuff that you are being bombarded with, and the style/format/content that you're going to use to write it up for your mum's friend. My guess would be that you're in for extra Brownie points with both of them!

 

The other area that you could have a look at if you have access to Ancestry is to look at the war diaries (Battalion, Brigade, and Division) to see if you can add context to the "sterile" dates and facts that have been posted - to try to create a more personal story for his family. In particular, I'd be looking at the circumstances surrounding his wounding in the photo, and those of his death. If you need any help in identifying which diaries to look at just shout.

 

Regards

Chris

 

P.S. Don't do any research at the expense of your school studies or homework, or you'll have Kevin on your case again

 

 

[Andy Wade]

I think it might be worth suggesting that number 7 probably doesn't actually have a blackened face because it's more likely to be bloodstains, as red appears black in these old photographs and we've seen numerous examples of this with certain medal ribbons and union flags.

 

 

[Harvey H]

16 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Harvey,

 

Don't feel ashamed. Everyone who contributes does so because they like to help, and as long (per your profile) "it's just a pleasure to learn", you are, then everyone will be well happy. The more that you become aware of where people are drawing their info sources from, the more you will be able to help others in the future - payback time!!

 

What I think that you could be doing at the moment is thinking about how you are going to make sense of all the stuff that you are being bombarded with, and the style/format/content that you're going to use to write it up for your mum's friend. My guess would be that you're in for extra Brownie points with both of them!

 

The other area that you could have a look at if you have access to Ancestry is to look at the war diaries (Battalion, Brigade, and Division) to see if you can add context to the "sterile" dates and facts that have been posted - to try to create a more personal story for his family. In particular, I'd be looking at the circumstances surrounding his wounding in the photo, and those of his death. If you need any help in identifying which diaries to look at just shout.

 

Regards

Chris

 

P.S. Don't do any research at the expense of your school studies or homework, or you'll have Kevin on your case again

 

 

Cheers clk, currently I do not have any major exams going on so should be okay. I'll search around, but I'm on FMP, so not sure on War Diaries, but using Census' and other non military records I could try and paint a picture of his personal life and military service using the things you guys have found and what i can myself.