TEW Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 Could be, rather a narrow gauge and not intact in the OP's image. More like those trolley lines with simple carts for pushing wounded. But as it seems broken and the area has only just been taken it would have to be a German trolley/tram? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 And finally. Man No. 6 (on right) who has been IDd as a Pioneer has also been IDd as Joe Hopkins? My knowledge of Pioneers is lacking, would this mean he's with Royal Pioneer Corps or RE or attached to Infantry. Not seeing likely candidate on Casualty Lists or Medals. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 5 minutes ago, TEW said: And finally. Man No. 6 (on right) who has been IDd as a Pioneer has also been IDd as Joe Hopkins? My knowledge of Pioneers is lacking, would this mean he's with Royal Pioneer Corps or RE or attached to Infantry. Not seeing likely candidate on Casualty Lists or Medals. TEW Not sure whether the pioneer collar badge was also applied to infantry battalions appointed as pioneer battalions. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey H Posted 12 July , 2016 Author Share Posted 12 July , 2016 Wow, sorry for not replying but I was at school. It seems to me that the coloured one is an airbrushed version of the IWM Q3976. Dillamore is not present in Q3976 as are some others, but as they were taken at different times I believe, as Dillamore took no wounds to his legs, could have shifted off up the road after the first photo and the photographer of Q3976 might have not wanted him in it, who knows? Pizzey doesn't look wounded, he has a small hole in his trouser leg in Q3976 but if it was a wound his trousers would've been cut open. I think Q3976 was taken at the same time somehow. I'll leave the photo thing to the experts because it has me bamboozled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kath Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 On 09/07/2016 at 08:23, Harvey H said: My mum knows the woman with the original photograph, Harvey, is there anything on the reverse? This interesting thread has likely solved something for me! (Sorry for digression). The photo I have of the Cornishmen marching down Edgware Road has the Daily Mirror stamp on the back: Daily Mirror , Bouverie Street, London, EC. My Grandmother must have seen the photo in the Daily Mirror & sent for a copy, so that's how she got it. I found it on the back page of the Daily Mirror 8th. July 1915. http://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/ViewArticle?id=BL%2F0000560%2F19150708%2F157%2F0016&browse=true Kath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoppage Drill Posted 12 July , 2016 Share Posted 12 July , 2016 Buying prints of newspaper photographs was very common until, ooh, the 1960s, especially provincial papers. Papers would usually have a running advertisement advising how to apply for copies. The prints were professionally reproduced and gave the impression of being "original." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vista52 Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 By following a few links on FB today, this popped-up. http://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/news/grandad-somme-picture-99069/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 Thanks Vista - great article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 OK. Looking at the photo http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/241060-info-on-this-famous-photo/&page=2#comment-2421679 We have: 1) Not yet identified 2) Not yet identified 3) German POW Not yet identified 4) Not yet identified 5) Pte. 7593 John Thomas Pizzey. Born Sudbury 1890. ?6th Btn.Royal Berkshire Regiment. Survived War. 6) Pte. Joseph Hopkins, Born 1892. ?Pioneer. Egerton, Kent. Survived War. Died in RTA 1935. 7) Pte. 3/4351 Edward ( Edmund) Dillamore, 11th Btn Lancashire Fusiliers, Killed 7/6/1917 8) Not yet identified Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 I think Hopkins has service papers on Ancestry: Name: Joseph James Hopkins Gender: Male Birth Date: abt 1893 Enlistment Age: 23 Marriage Date: 17 May 1917 Marriage Place: Ashford Kent Document Year: 1916 Residence Place: Newland Green Farm, Egerton Regimental Number: 160493 Regiment Name: Royal Garrison Artillery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 Attested 26th Feb 1916 But not mobilised till 1917 !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 Free BMD has Joseph J. Hopkins aged 42 death registered in Ashford, Kent district, aged 42, in December quarter 1934 (not 35 as stated by relatives). MIC Index gives 3 Joseph J Hopkinses, and the link given by Simon tallies with one. Given the address agrees also, that has to be the grandfather of the people in the Kent Online link. But is the man in the photo their relative?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 Can Hopkins be a Pioneer in the RGA or has he transferred before or after? No. 6 Is definitely a Pioneer and no-one with rank of Pioneer by the name of Hopkins shows on Casualty list. Dallimore however is on the list and with a date conducive to being wounded circa the date of the photo. Do the service records indicate Pioneer with any unit? I checked the pioneer battalions in divisions associated with Dallimore and Pizzey and no Hopkins. I realise in the confusion of battle battalions get mixed up but I still feel Dallimore is a long way off from where he should have been and crossed at least one divisional boundary. However, assuming the date of the photo is correct (and It seems Brooke's caption is bona fide) then Dallimore must have been holed up somewhere severely wounded and for reasons not yet known ended up south of Mametz Wood. I also not certain if they are on their way to the ADS run by 63 FA or if they've been there are and are on their way to a car post or similar. The photo looks to me as if they're walking uphill, anyone know the area well enough to say? Map and refs in post 75. Anyone else going to say anything about the 'similarity' of the man in the 2 FB photos?? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 Hopkins' records are interesting. He married Eva Ellen Glover (Spinster) on May 17th 1917. He is posted on May 19th 1917. His attestation form of February 26th 1916, is stamped by No 1 Depot RGA, Rugeley, Staffs, on May 22nd 1917. His wife dies of Tuberculosis of Larynx and Lungs on June 26th, and according to the Death Certificate, her widower, Joseph J. Hopkins, is present at her death. Hopkins' occupation is given as 'Gunner 3rd Reserve RGA (Farmer)'. Served on Home front 19/5/1917 to 27/7/1917 Wounded 'WO Cas List HA 22295' (Or maybe 222qs or q5). Adm. severe GSW R Leg. 18 (Chicago U Section) Gen H Danne Camiens? April 17 1918 Invalided to England per " Stad Antwerpen" WO Adm City of London Red Cross Hospital, Finsbury Square EC2 BEF 28/7/17 to 26/4/18 Home 28/4/18 to 30/9/18 BEF 1/10/18- Dispersal Unit Dover 19/1/1919 Wounded yes. But not on the Somme in 1916! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 59 minutes ago, TEW said: Anyone else going to say anything about the 'similarity' of the man in the 2 FB photos?? Which man? Which photos are the FB photos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 (edited) Dai The link from post 82, supposed to be man No. 6 in the OP photo. Wearing wrong badge, not in France at the time and to me only has a passing resemblance. TEW Oh, I see my edited version didn't save. I meant the image found by following FB links in kentonline from post 82. Comparison of Joseph Hopkins and No. 6. Edited 18 July , 2016 by TEW Correction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 9 minutes ago, TEW said: Dai The link from post 82, supposed to be man No. 6 in the OP photo. Wearing wrong badge, not in France at the time and to me only has a passing resemblance. TEW Oh, I see my edited version didn't save. I meant the image found by following FB links in kentonline from post 82. Comparison of Joseph Hopkins and No. 6. Oh. You mean Facial Books? We don't have any this way. Facial similarity certainly, but it can't be him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 Thanks for putting those up together Simon, makes life easier. I had doubts before about the Hopkins ID and can't really say I'm 100% convinced about Pizzey, although we have no idea which Berkshire battalion he was with at the time I couldn't place any of them in that place for that date. Not on casualty list either. Perhaps he had been drafted in as stretcher bearer and not in combat role. Dallimore has more going for him as far as a correct ID to No. 7. I have the diary for 11/Lancs, his brigade, 7th brigade, the division, ADMS and am trying to find time to plot out all the movements and timings onto a map. As I've said before, his battalion had been relieved and we're back in billets on this date, hence my notion that Dallimore must have been one of the 'missing'. His wounds look bad enough to warrant the idea of spending a night in a shell hole or such like. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 Hi, When I looked at the service record for 160493 Joseph James Hopkins, his address shown on in his papers would appear to confirm that he is the same man referred to in the newspaper report. As previously mentioned though he doesn't appear to have been mobilised until May 1917, not going abroad until the end of July 1917, and only served in theatre with 155 Siege Battery RGA, and later 327 Siege Battery RGA. The two entries being separated by an entry from 1st June 1918 which seems to read "1/1 S.A.R.B". I don't know what unit that refers to, but guess that it might refer to a posting to a UK based unit following his wounding in April 1918. In any case I can't see anything to suggest that he was in theatre when the photo was purportedly taken in 1916, nor if (big if) it were taken later anything to explain what would appear to be the pioneer collar insignia in the photo. Question is, which Pal is erudite and diplomatic enough (not me!) to contact the newspaper (and by association the family) to say that the information doesn't stack up to the story? Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 18 July , 2016 Share Posted 18 July , 2016 I looked at the stack of books, the newspaper cutting and the nicely framed photos of 'Grandad on the Somme' and just thought, I can't tell them!! Doubt the newspaper would be interested, it won't increase sales to say 'the story we ran yesterday wasn't true'. TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_Fielding Posted 19 July , 2016 Share Posted 19 July , 2016 Like it says in the film The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, 'When the legend becomes reality, print the legend' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghazala Posted 19 July , 2016 Share Posted 19 July , 2016 This is an excellent thread. Very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinBattle Posted 19 July , 2016 Share Posted 19 July , 2016 Well, we seem to be bouncing around from one man to another and none of them seem to have been in one place together at any time, let alone 1916. There is a facial resemblance to th Hopkins photo, so could there have been another brother in a Pioneer battalion on the Somme? Otherwise we risk going round in circles and will soon end up with a better idenitity for the PoW than the Brits! Is there anyone who might be able to identify anything about the PoW's uniform, badges etc - apart from him being a smoker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TEW Posted 19 July , 2016 Share Posted 19 July , 2016 I sort of felt I wasted time trying to prove Pizzey and Hopkins were who they were claimed to be in order to substantiate the presence of Dallimore. As you say, things go around in circles. Pizzey and Hopkins were IDd by descendants who both happen to be BBC R4 Producers. It seems Hopkins was IDd by having a slight resemblance but not backed up by even 5 minutes research perhaps the same applies to Pizzey. How many moustachioed men with a slight resemblance could be found in 15 minutes? TEW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now