MOD confirm they are issuing "Returned" WW1 Medals

[FZ1]

Thanks for the 'evidence', and your thoughts. It would be good to see a newly issued group.

Not claiming in the first place might be a deliberate act, or might just be ignorance. Certainly my Father was inquiring into his father's service in the 80's as the MIC indicates a stamp at that time and he'd told me he did, but he was unaware that medals could still be claimed at that point. No one appears to have informed him that he could apply because the medals were never issued. He would have done so had he known. Sending medals back because they don't want them is just as deliberate an act by the recipient or their NoK as not claiming them in the first place I would submit- in fact it may be even more so as they actually had them in their possession. If they're now allowing those returned medals to be issued again under those circumstances I don't see how they should refuse a request for medals that were never claimed. How many Officers' medals went unclaimed I wonder?

Really, I'd be willing to pay the MoD whatever it costs to get his officially issued pair with box of issue, etc.

Matthew

"I don't see how they should refuse a request for medals that were never claimed"

The arguments for issuing unclaimed medals won't wash with the MoD, they stopped doing this in the 90s and haven't issued any since.

Jon

[Anneca]

No. The form says that the death certificate is not required for deaths in service - although enclosing a print of the CWGC entry seems a good idea

My brother-in-law has applied for his uncle's medals and has had the following reply by email. He had enclosed a copy of the MIC and CWGC with his application. I would be grateful for any suggestions regarding the death certificate as the original would have been issued to my brother-in-law's grandmother, now long dead.

Regards, Anne

"Mr Curry,

Apologies, I have just noticed that we do not have a copy of your uncle's death certificate.

If you could please forward a copy of this and, upon receipt I will be able to action accordingly.

Regards.

Mrs Clare West

DBS MODMO Honours & Awards E1a"

[Derek Black]

The GRO should be able to supply that.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

Derek.

[tullybrone]

Anne,

Whilst you could get the death certificate as requested you would incur a cost.

If it is a death in service and the application form states no death certificate is required in those circumstances (I haven't checked but accept what John Hartley says above) I would challenge the request from the civil servant quoting the relevant part of the application form.

It won't be the first time a mistake has been made in correspondence from a civil servant.

Good Luck

Steve Y

[Anneca]

Many thanks Derek and Steve. I have had a look at the GRO site Derek and forwarded the link to my brother-in law. Steve, I notice there is nothing on the actual application form about a death certificate not being required, but I do remember something on their site about this. I will go through the MOD site again and if there is something here about a certificate not being required reckon your suggestion of challenging the civil servant concerned is a good idea.

Anne

[munce]

I recently claimed my great-uncle's unissued WW2 medals, and the MOD also cam back to ask for a death certificate. I replied that I didn't have one, that he had died in service in 1945, and that the form stated I didn't need to send one in. I received no reply, but a few weeks later received a jiffy bag containing four boxes each with a campaign medal. I suspect that having a death certificate from the claimant means one less set of records to pull out from the archives. Being a civil servant myself I bore no grudge against the person concerned - in fact, given that I had just been sent, absolutely free of charge, four medals which I personally did nothing to earn, I felt instead a warm glow of appreciation!

[Anneca]

Munce, it is wonderful you have been able to get your great-uncle's unissued WW2 medals without much trouble and not have to get a death certificate - you must be delighted. Perhaps one person in the MOD didn't know what the other was doing when one sent the medals and another asked for the certificate. Great to hear you have got them.

After my last post I checked the application forms again for the WW1 medal and sure enough on page 3, part 2a "Applying on behalf a deceased Veteran/Serviceperson" it is stated "please enclose a copy of the person's death certificate or notification of death - (this is not required if they died in service)" so I don't know why they have requested this. I have suggested to my brother-in-law that he replies quoting this and ask if they can confirm he will receive his Uncle's medals on receipt of a death certificate before going to the trouble of trying to get one.

It would be interesting to know if any other member reading this thread has applied and received 'returned' medals.

Anne

[FZ1]

a few weeks later received a jiffy bag containing four boxes each with a campaign medal.

Excellent news!

However, the main subject of this thread refers to WW1 medals and (as per my previous post) I know of no Great War medal issues in the last decade or so. Anneca, please keep us updated because many of us would be interested to know the outcome of your brother-in-law's efforts.

Thanks,

Jon

[TheFonz]

Are the medal index cards clearly stated "returned" or some abbreviation of that word if the medals were returned or never issued to begin with? I would love to track down my wife's great-great uncle's medals - he was killed in 1916. I don't know who he listed as his next-of-kin. No one is noted as such on his MIC or CWGC headstone paperwork. At the time of the war, other than himself, he had two sisters living in England. His parents, brothers, and another sister had immigrated to Canada between 1910-1913. Both sisters in England immigrated to Australia in 1920. So, I don't have a clue where they could have gone - his folks in Canada, sisters in England, or never claimed at all.

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Hopefully this post from Geoff Baxter clarifies the issue if what is written on the MIC.

Have you checked the wording on your relatives MIC?

Medal rolls are now also available on Ancestry.

Good Luck.

Steve Y

I understood from posts on this site that they didn't re-issue but I had copies of the medal cards which showed the medals had been returned. I couldn't read the scribble on the bottom section on one of the cards so I wrote to the medal section asking if they knew why they had been returned, and whether they still existed or had been destroyed. Some months later I had a document to fill in as a request for the medals. I assumed that being a close blood relative, a nephew, and that they had been returned, made the difference.

There is no indication like an "R", they look like the genuine article to me. Should I have said issued rather than re-issued?

I do hope this hasn't put the cat amongst the pigeons.

[Anneca]

Are the medal index cards clearly stated "returned" or some abbreviation of that word if the medals were returned or never issued to begin with? I would love to track down my wife's great-great uncle's medals - he was killed in 1916. I don't know who he listed as his next-of-kin. No one is noted as such on his MIC or CWGC headstone paperwork. At the time of the war, other than himself, he had two sisters living in England. His parents, brothers, and another sister had immigrated to Canada between 1910-1913. Both sisters in England immigrated to Australia in 1920. So, I don't have a clue where they could have gone - his folks in Canada, sisters in England, or never claimed at all.

Hi, the MIC which I posted at #27 clearly states "returned", and issuing returned medals is what this thread is about. I must say I will be very surprised if the MoD act on this one but am certain they will not act on applications for medals never having been claimed at all. They keep stating on their medal applications forms "Please note: Medals awarded prior to the Second World War can no longer be issued".

Anne

[kenf48]

On 25/11/2014 at 05:44, anneca said:

Hi, the MIC which I posted at #27 clearly states "returned", and issuing returned medals is what this thread is about. I must say I will be very surprised if the MoD act on this one but am certain they will not act on applications for medals never having been claimed at all. They keep stating on their medal applications forms "Please note: Medals awarded prior to the Second World War can no longer be issued".

Anne I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned that the mic you posted at 27 shows the medals were returned under the terms of Kings Regulations 992 1923 which simply means they were undeliverable. This has been discussed a number of times on the forum e.g.

The regulation states if not claimed after ten years they will be returned to Woolwich to be 'broken up'. I think the family story is just that, there are also examples of grief stricken relatives refusing to accept the medals as they were sent registered post if not signed for they would be returned.

I have seen no evidence that 8362/adt means 'adjustment' there are examples of a different number followed by /adt and you will notice that reference is also in the bottom right hand corner of the card which makes it more likely it is an admin reference whose meaning is lost.

In effect the card tells you the medals were not received by the soldier, or his family, a common occurrence that was mentioned on more than one occasion in the national press as a problem for the issuing office as soldiers had moved from the address given on demobilisation.

I agree with you the MoD are still saying the medals cannot be issued, a situation that has prevailed for many years and yet it seems there has been a change to that policy but the website does not reflect this. Though with the Centenary it seems anything can happen!

Ken

[clive_hughes]

Fonz,

A source you might consider is the Soldiers Effects records held by the National Army Museum, Chelsea, London. These registers document the unissued pay owing to deceased British soldiers, and who it was sent to - i.e., the next of kin. I carried out this exercise last November for a man I was sure had enlisted under an alias - and the result gave his (real) mother's surname by her second marriage, so proved the point. No address given for NoK but some other incidental info was the place of birth, occupation, place of death, and date of enlistment.

It cost me £10.25 but was worth it. They offer both a transcript and/or snapshot photos from the Registers - take both (the transcript was flawed)! The main Museum is closed till 2016 but it seems research can still be carried out? Try http://www.nam.ac.uk/research/research-enquiries

Re. MICS,

Note, no MIC exists in the case of officers (or their next of kin, even if he was killed in action) who never applied for the medals. The MIC is tied to the Roll, and no Roll entry = no MIC. Granted this thread is about returned as opposed to unissued medals, but I thought I'd mention it.

Clive

[TheFonz]

Howdy Clive.

I contacted the British Army Museum, and received this response this morning:

Thank you for your email. Unfortunately, the Soldier's Effects service is unavailable at present due to an ongoing digitisation project. Apologies for the inconvenience, but It should be possible to view the entire collection online early next year via Ancestry.com once the project is completed.

So, I'll just sit tight and wait until then. Thanks for the tip, though. At least the records will be open to me here in the states without much of a wait once they are online.

[Anneca]

My brother in law received an email Out of Office reply from DBS-MODMO Hons Awards E1a yesterday saying

“This is confirmation that your email has been received by the MOD Medals Office. The Medal Office is currently experiencing a high volume of requests for medals, queries and other forms of correspondence. Please be assured that your email has been forwarded onto the relevant section and will be actioned in due course. This may take several weeks.

Please note that the Medal Office Email Address has now changed to DBSMedals@mod.uk with effect from 1 Apr 14 and our previous email address of spva-medals@mod.uk is now no longer in use.”

This is strange as his reply email was in response to the one he had received from the MOD a few days ago asking for a death certificate – a different email address. However, it does look like the chances of claiming returned medals are now zero, thanks to Ken’s kind interpretation of Kings Regulations 992 1923. Thank you Ken, at least our hopes are no longer raised in anticipation of the MOD response in several weeks.

Anne

[CGM]

Howdy Clive.

I contacted the British Army Museum, and received this response this morning:

Thank you for your email. Unfortunately, the Soldier's Effects service is unavailable at present due to an ongoing digitisation project. Apologies for the inconvenience, but It should be possible to view the entire collection online early next year via Ancestry.com once the project is completed.

So, I'll just sit tight and wait until then. Thanks for the tip, though. At least the records will be open to me here in the states without much of a wait once they are online.

I subscribe to Ancestry.co.uk (doesn't everyone in the UK?).

I hope the Soldiers' Effects will be available to us too, as part of our existing subscription.

I hope

[Derek Black]

I subscribe to Ancestry.co.uk (doesn't everyone in the UK?).

I don't.

Although i do live 100m from the local library which does.

Derek.

[CGM]

Oh dear, Derek, I think I have written my post very badly !

I will re-write it...

.......Apologies for the inconvenience, but It should be possible to view the entire collection online early next year via Ancestry.com once the project is completed.

My point is that the National Army Museum is arranging for the Soldiers' Effects Records to be available on Ancestry.com but isn't Ancestry.co.uk the Ancestry of choice for all UK subscribers?

Therefore, I hope the Soldiers' Effects will be available to us too, as part of our existing subscription.

CGM

[Derek Black]

Ah, gotcha.

Is there a diffence in content between the two ancestry sites?

Derek.

[ss002d6252]

Ah, gotcha.

Is there a diffence in content between the two ancestry sites?

Derek.

As I understand it it's more a case of .co.uk subscriptions are UK based record sets and .com has US based sets - any sets from outside your area require the appropriate subscription for international records.

I suspect the .com reference is just the way they have worded it - Ancestry have nothing to gain by putting UK records only on the .com site unless they want to force people in to a more expensive subscription (not something they have done so far with the WW1 sets).

Craig

[TheFonz]

In my inquiry to them, I did indicate that I was in the United States. I don't know if that would have any influence on the type of response I received. I would suspect it would be available on the UK version for your normal subscription price; I will probably be the one forking out the extra dough. I'll probably end up subscribing to the international version anyway - the deeper I dig the more need I have to access UK stuff.

[Anneca]

Hi,

Hopefully one or more of our members who are eligible to claim "returned" relatives medals will now do so and keep us up to date with how they get on.

Good Luck to All.

Regards

Steve Y

Well, I had lost all hope of the MOD coming back about the medals but the following email has been received today. I must say I'm dumbstruck!

Anne

Sorry, I had posted the content of this email without observing these comments at the end: This e-mail is intended for the recipient only. Access to this message by any other person is not permitted

Suffice to say the MOD are arranging for the medals to be re-issued to the official NOK - not the original medals, and that they will be dispatched within the next 2-3 months.

Edited 11 March , 2015 by anneca

[tullybrone]

Hi Anne,

I'm really pleased that you have achieved such a success. Congratulations.

Best Wishes

Steve

EDITTED TO ADD

Anne,

I wonder if on receipt of the medals later in the year you could post some images?

I'm sure some members would be interested in the style of naming on the rims.

[Anneca]

All thanks to you Steve for starting this thread. Until they are received however I'm holding my breath, but images will certainly be posted if they arrive. As Ken has said in post #62, "the MOD keep stating on their medal application forms 'Please note: Medals awarded prior to the Second World War can no longer be issued' .....though with the Centenary it seems anything can happen". Looks like "anything" might just happen so good luck to other members who have also made applications, even though the medals are not the originals.

Many thanks again.

Anne

[james_harvey]

Great my great great uncles were returned.