MOD confirm they are issuing "Returned" WW1 Medals

[james_harvey]

Andy you need to look at page 2

Those are the roll reference number which means they were issued

The roll will state returned or not claimed or the rear of that card will state returned or disposed or never claimed

My own gt grandfathers only shows 1914 star and war medal

The roll also shows 1914 and war medal

And in his papers there is a receipt for 1914 star without clasp and war medal and a note saying no victory medal

I have applied for his victory medal and this has been approved and I am waiting for the Royal mint to make it

Takes about 3 months. As they are only minting small batches of approved medals at a time.

[james_harvey]

Barry

Good luck, I would also assume as no living ww1 vets are still alive but I only passed on what I was told and I had 1 claim returned as no death certificate but I had told them he was Kia so sent cwgc page.

Hope you are successful

Hi James

Asked the MOD what do we do if we don't know when my g/father died, he just disappeared after appx 1922. As he was born in 1892 she agreed that it is safe to presume he is now deceased, but the proof of the pudding.....

Regards Barry

[james_harvey]

Mine were returned medals

I have also applied for a victory medal which was never issued

Also a 1914 clasp.

Word of warning you have to provide proof they were not issued otherwise mod assume they were and have since been lost lost stolen sold etc

Also applied for defence medal for ww2 after mod told me on 3 occasions that he was never entitled and his full allocation of 4 medals were sent in 1948.

After £10 for death certificate and £30 for copy of his service record as his original parchment did not show leave courses etc (so they said) and copy of original defence medal criteria (that was hard to find) and proof that Ceylon was on the list of 6 months qualification with dated

He qualified for 6 months service in Ceylon which was subject to bombing. It was a lot of man hours and paperwork but medal arrived 4 weeks after I applied again

No one said it is easy and it's easy to take no for an answer.

These are my own experiences others may find it easier or harder

[james_harvey]

Mine were returned medals

I have also applied for a victory medal which was never issued

Also a 1914 clasp.

Word of warning you have to provide proof they were not issued otherwise mod assume they were and have since been lost lost stolen sold etc

Also applied for defence medal for ww2 after mod told me on 3 occasions that he was never entitled and his full allocation of 4 medals were sent in 1948.

After £10 for death certificate and £30 for copy of his service record as his original parchment did not show leave courses etc (so they said) and copy of original defence medal criteria (that was hard to find) and proof that Ceylon was on the list of 6 months qualification with dated

He qualified for 6 months service in Ceylon which was subject to bombing. It was a lot of man hours and paperwork but medal arrived 4 weeks after I applied again

No one said it is easy and it's easy to take no for an answer.

These are my own experiences others may find it easier or harder

[peregrinvs]

This is interesting stuff. I need to double check the NOK didn't apply for it at the time, but does this mean my wife's family could apply for a 1914 clasp for a relative's 1914 Star? This chap here:

 

 

[tullybrone]

James,

Thanks for outlining the process you followed. I'm sure it will be helpful to members. It's a shame MOD do not appear to have updated their website information.

Can you just clarify one point re your great uncles medals which seems to conflict with a post on the returned medals thread.

Was your successful application for your great uncles medals under the returned medals criteria, as you posted on the other thread, or under the "unissued" criteria subject of this thread?

Steve Y

[KevinBattle]

James, to clarify any possible misunderstanding, I was not inferring you were a liar, it's just unexpected that a Form apparently for WW2 medals (which can be ignored) and used for WW1 medal applications.

I (like many here) appreciate your information that WW1 medals that meet clearly defined criteria, can be applied for and received.

You have spent 16 years over this, I've just dropped in out of curiosity and a little humour (I hope).

Congratulations on having achieved a remarkable result and that all this work has not been in vain and could be of great help to many here.

One has to hope that recipients are genuine and do not seek to sell them on, and medal dealers should be able to spot these versions.

[westkent78]

James and Steve,

This is great news. Time to apply for my grandfather's WW1 pair as he never bothered to do so. Have to work out who is next of kin for MOD's purposes though.

Seems only fair that they include medals to Officers who never applied, if they're giving a second bite of the cherry to ones that were returned.

You've made my day.

I'll be in touch James once I get all the ducks in a row.

Matthew

[james_harvey]

All the medals are being newly minted. With unclaimed medals you need to prove they were not claimed, if there is any discrepancy they will turn it down

My great uncles medals were returned

The 1914 clasp was never claimed and I have been told it has been authorised

I also helped a friend claim an officers trio he is waiting for them to arrive

Once the claim has been accepted it can take a few months as they are striking the medals as and when they are claimed.

[james_harvey]

Depends if he was under fire at the time. You need to have proof.

[horatio2]

This is particularly important for families who do not have RN/RM medals (officers or ratings/ORs) because, like army officers' medals, the Admiralty did not issue medals unless claimed. The absence of an entry in the appropriate column of the ADM 171 medal rolls means that medals were not claimed/issued. There must be tens of thousands of such entries.

Ref Post #5, I would not expect the MOD to rescind the forfeiture of medals by a deserter. His naval service was made as nought by his desertion and he certainly did not deserve to receive medals - nor should his descendants.

[peregrinvs]

Depends if he was under fire at the time. You need to have proof.

Thanks. I believe the 16th London's landed in France on the 3rd November, so I need to work out whether my man was 'within range of the enemy's mobile artillery' within the following 19 days? I know he signed an autograph book during training in August 1914 with what looks like the following:

W Kemp

A Comp

2 WR

24/8/14

All help with identifying his movements prior to 22nd November very gratefully accepted as this is a new field of research for me.

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Ray Westlake's book British Battalions in France & Belguim 1914, based on War Diary entries, states -

5th Nov at St Omer

10th Nov marched to Hazebrouck

11th Nov to Bailleul - reorganised into 4 Companies - " flashes of guns at Yprrs seen and firing of heavy guns heard constantly"

12th Nov to Erqiinghem & joined 18th Brigade, 6th Division.

Overnight 16/17th Nov No 1 Company acted as support 16th Brigade at Calvert Farm (Bois Grenier)

Overnight 17/18th No 2 Company in support 16th Brigade - digging communication trench from Calvert Fsrm to La Flamendarie Farm

18th Nov individual companies began training in front line.

I think he would qualify for clasp. He would likely be in No 1 Company following reorganisation.

Good Luck

Steve Y

[tullybrone]

Hi,

Thanks for all members posts on this topic.

Hopefully those members who apply and receive the medals will post details of their experience on this thread.

Horatio - Please feel free to post a topic on Navy sub forum, with a link to this topic, to alert relatives of RM/RN to this issue.

Regards

Steve Y

[peregrinvs]

Thank you. That is very helpful.

Hi,

Ray Westlake's book British Battalions in France & Belguim 1914, based on War Diary entries, states -

5th Nov at St Omer

10th Nov marched to Hazebrouck

11th Nov to Bailleul - reorganised into 4 Companies - " flashes of guns at Yprrs seen and firing of heavy guns heard constantly"

12th Nov to Erqiinghem & joined 18th Brigade, 6th Division.

Overnight 16/17th Nov No 1 Company acted as support 16th Brigade at Calvert Farm (Bois Grenier)

Overnight 17/18th No 2 Company in support 16th Brigade - digging communication trench from Calvert Fsrm to La Flamendarie Farm

18th Nov individual companies began training in front line.

I think he would qualify for clasp. He would likely be in No 1 Company following reorganisation.

Good Luck

Steve Y

[Bilco]

I asked Rachel Evans, the Medal Account Manager at the Royal Mint about the naming on these medals and her reply was:

"To engrave the recipients details we use one of the old traditional Royal Mint engraving machines which means that we can keep it looking as close to the original engraving font as we can."

Bill

[mw25]

I asked Rachel Evans, the Medal Account Manager at the Royal Mint about the naming on these medals and her reply was:

"To engrave the recipients details we use one of the old traditional Royal Mint engraving machines which means that we can keep it looking as close to the original engraving font as we can."

Bill

Thanks Bill, very interesting. I'd wondered how the engraving was done.

Malcolm

[james_harvey]

It's machine impressed.

[Bilco]

After I looked at the admirably sharp photos you posted James I can see why you feel that the naming is impressed. So, I went back to Rachel and told her that there were some rotters on the GWF who didn't belive her statement - being a gentleman I was happy to accept what she said, but I pointed out that the originals had been impressed, not engraved as she had said, and asked her if she could confirm the method used now. She very kindly forebore from telling me to Foxtrot Oscar and said that she would talk to some people at the Royal Mint to get the correct terminology. Her answer came today:

"Hi Bill

Apologies for the delay in my response.

You are correct in that the original medals were ‘impressed’ please accept my apologies for the incorrect terminology I used.

For modern day medals which we engrave we use a ‘laser tip’ engraver, however to keep to more traditional methods of engraving we currently use a ‘pantograph’ for all WW1 medals.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Rachel"

I promised her that I wouldn't bother her again so, short of hammering on the door of the Royal Mint and demanding to watch them do the naming, that's what we're left with.

Bill

[clive_hughes]

I'm sure there will be great satisfaction now that people are enabled to claim these medals. A query re. "standards of proof", if it can be answered:

Officers medals had to be applied for by themselves, or their next of kin if they died during or after the war. As I've understood it, if no such application was made, the name and details don't appear on the medal rolls (unlike previous conflicts). The rolls themselves comprise the record of (successful) applications. So there will be no roll entry and no MIC either, since the card was only generated to reflect a roll entry. So the paperwork is absent.

I'm thinking of a specific case here where a pilot killed in action has no MIC or roll entry. Someone recently enquired of his family, and the present descendants had confirmed there never were any medals - the man's parents weren't interested in getting gongs in exchange for their lost boy.

Those people might be prepared now to make a claim; but other than the negative evidence of no roll/MIC, where would they find proof that no claim had previously been made? That he served and died could be proved amply.

Clive

[james_harvey]

You need to prove. If killed in action this should be enough proof.

[spud4210]

Hi all,

Interesting to see the MOD are issuing again. I have posted in "Medals" about my GF who served in the Kings and has no Medal Roll or index card attributed to his service. He was issued with Ribbon and medal for Mercantile Marine in '20 and '24. I know for a fact that he served in France from Jan 1917 and that he also served on the Aquitania in late 1914 as she was a converted to merchant cruiser protecting the sea lanes into Liverpool before she was laid up later in November to be refitted.

i will try and apply on my fathers behalf as he is the eldest NOK for the BWM, VM and possibly the 14-15 star if he is eligible for that. Although he was merchant navy would he be eligible for the star? As that would have been issued through the Admiralty?

regards

Paul

[james_harvey]

No 1914-15 star as merchant navy not eligible

[spud4210]

No 1914-15 star as merchant navy not eligible

Even though the Aquitania was requisitioned by the Goverment to serve a a armed merchant cruiser, commissioned into the Royal Navy on August 7 where it patrolled the western approaches to Liverpool, he served on her till late August '14

Paul

[james_harvey]

If he was employed by MN then no star, if he was RNR or RN then star. Ancestry have the RN/RNR papers and medal rolls