CWGC Documents Archive Online

[Phil Evans]

Alex,

Looking at a few casualties in Jonchery-sur-Vesle at random, some of the Burial Returns have been based on British mapping and others on the French. Yours is the latter. Looking at the co-ordinates, all except one on the same return as McGregor appear to have been recovered from the same square as the cemetery.

Phil

[delta]

Well done to the CWGC team

I have managed to find a little more detail about several of those whom I am researching.

[Amor]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the reply. Can you send me some details or a link where I can read-up on how the French Mapping works?

Rgds,
Alex

[Phil Evans]

Hello Alex,

I did try to answer your PM, but the system appears to be playing up. Luckily I managed to copy and paste my response:

I wish I could, but I can't. I've spent the evening searching, firstly for which map it might be on. I think it is too far West for the Reims N.O. map. I did find a couple of possibilities at the National Archives - WO 297/5263 (Jonchery-sur-Vesle) or WO 297/5259 (Fismes).

I also tried to find an explanation of the French mapping system, of which I'm not sure if there wasn't two. I believe the maps your query belongs to were produced under the title Groupe des Canevas de Tir and use the"Quadrillage de kilometrique Systeme Lambert". It is a 1km grid system, but I don't know the origin and I believe that the leading figures have been dropped. For all my pains, I ended up on a GWF thread that said there was little info online about the mapping systems. The resident expert is Croonaert.

Phil

[Amor]

Hi Phil,

Thanks again for your time and explanations. I will PM Croonaert and see if he can help further.

Rgds,
Alex

[auchonvillerssomme]

I have found the grave inscription details really useful to confirm residence of 2 casualties.

[Phil Wood]

Just had a look at the documentation for a lad buried in a local cemetery - nice to find out when the CWGC added a headstone to his grave. Which made me wonder - can an epitaph be added to a new headstone? In this case it woud have been nice to add a mention of his infant son who died a few weeks after him and lies in the same grave. I'd even pay the 3½d per letter...

[eairicbloodaxe]

Nice upgrade to have the documents... pity about the name search.

But???

I've posted before on here about my research into Pte Arthur Illingworth, died 11/11/18. The CWGC gives the details of his grave in Caudry in France... now with the lovely documents to download. Yet the reason I started looking for details on him in the first place is that he ALSO has a CWGC stone in Farsley, near where he lived.

The UK "duplicate" stone is not on the attached documents. Any thoughts as to why?

Kind regards

Ian

[spof]

Ian

My first thought is that the UK one is a replica i.e. added by family who could not travel to France or similar. There is no way CWGC would allow 2 official places of commemoration.

Glen

[NigelS]

If he's buried at Caudry and has a CWGC headstone there, he shouldn't have one on a empty or family grave in the UK; the CWGC 'rules' only allow one commemoration per casualty. Is it possible that the Farsley one is not a CWGC stone, but a good replica made by a local stonemason? it would explain the lack of CWGC documentation.

NigelS

[Stephen Nulty]

Came across my first verification form a few days back.

Now added to my site

<a data-ipb="nomediaparse" data-cke-saved-href="http://www.prescot-rollofhonour.info/casualty-343-Alfred_Taylor" href="http://www.prescot-rollofhonour.info/casualty-343-Alfred_Taylor" s.html"="">http://www.prescot-rollofhonour.info/casualty-343-Alfred_Taylor.html

[CGM]

But???

............ he ALSO has a CWGC stone in Farsley, near where he lived.

The UK "duplicate" stone is not on the attached documents. Any thoughts as to why?

Kind regards

Ian

A search of the burial records for the churchyard or cemetery where the stone is situated should reveal if he is buried there or not.

You might also be able to find who (else) is buried in that plot.

CGM

[Griffner]

I thought the intended inscription sounded like a quote but a search doesn't seem to throw anything up for that nor the inscription actually used. One family member has 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.' which is a quote from the bible (John 15:13). I wonder if, in some way, it is linked to or an intended derivative of that quote? My GGGF had the same inscription on his own headstone and he chose that one for his grandson but I imagine it was quite a popular one given the wording of it.

Interesting. Do you have the CWGC links handy for those graves with the same inscription ? I haven't been able to unearth anything online about greater love other than that precise bible quote.

[seaforths]

Interesting. Do you have the CWGC links handy for those graves with the same inscription ? I haven't been able to unearth anything online about greater love other than that precise bible quote.

I think he had the longer version of the 'Greater love...' when he was commemorated on a family grave I will check later but this is what he has on his CWGC grave:

I will keep an eye out for any others in the same vein. I don't know why but ''His was the greater love...' is still niggling me as being from another quote. The only other one I can see is Corinthians 13:13

'But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love...'

[Kath]

Seaforths,

I think ''His was the greater love...' is a reference by the family to the well-known verse John 15:13.

Their son showed "the greater love" by laying down his life for his friends.

Kath.

[Shiny]

I think the paperwork the cwgc is great but I'm wondering if there shouldn't be more.

I didn't know what to expect but was hoping for an individual form on each person. A more detailed description of exactly what the GRU found maybe describing what uniform and personal belongings were with them.

My soldier was identified by documents in a bottle, were those documents kept? What exactly was on them?

It also has a reference number indicating his personal belongings were returned home, I want to know what was sent and when. Were they buried with him or sent from his unit?

I'm guessing I was hoping for way too much. I know this was done on a mass scale and almost 100 years ago but I keep thinking today there would be really detailed records that list everything, shouldn't there be just a little more.

I know this sounds like a complaint but it really isn't, the forms are great, but does anyone with more knowledge than me know if there could be more paperwork tucked away for a second release or written enquiry?

[GraemeClarke]

Hi

Slightly off thread I fear but...

Did the CWGC keep the photographs they (or someone on their behalf) took of the original G.R.U. crosses ??

Regards,

Graeme

[seaforths]

I thought the intended inscription sounded like a quote but a search doesn't seem to throw anything up for that nor the inscription actually used. One family member has 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.' which is a quote from the bible (John 15:13). I wonder if, in some way, it is linked to or an intended derivative of that quote? My GGGF had the same inscription on his own headstone and he chose that one for his grandson but I imagine it was quite a popular one given the wording of it.

Seaforths,

I think ''His was the greater love...' is a reference by the family to the well-known verse John 15:13.

Their son showed "the greater love" by laying down his life for his friends.

Kath.

Yes, sorry Kath I was going back over something I had already said in an earlier post (see above). It is niggling me a little that I seem to think there was another biblical quote closer than John and the Corinthians but I cannot recall with any accuracy. It is probably one of those things that I will wake up to at 3am in the morning several weeks from now

I think the paperwork the cwgc is great but I'm wondering if there shouldn't be more.

I didn't know what to expect but was hoping for an individual form on each person. A more detailed description of exactly what the GRU found maybe describing what uniform and personal belongings were with them.

My soldier was identified by documents in a bottle, were those documents kept? What exactly was on them?

It also has a reference number indicating his personal belongings were returned home, I want to know what was sent and when. Were they buried with him or sent from his unit?

I'm guessing I was hoping for way too much. I know this was done on a mass scale and almost 100 years ago but I keep thinking today there would be really detailed records that list everything, shouldn't there be just a little more.

I know this sounds like a complaint but it really isn't, the forms are great, but does anyone with more knowledge than me know if there could be more paperwork tucked away for a second release or written enquiry?

I don't know if they have finished adding all the information they have on each individual. It is a huge project. There might be more to come?

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

... I didn't know what to expect but was hoping for an individual form on each person.

... My soldier was identified by documents in a bottle, were those documents kept? What exactly was on them?

... know if there could be more paperwork tucked away for a second release or written enquiry?

This was being carried out on a grand scale under very trying conditions. The surprise is probably that the records are so good !

The "details in a bottle" was a recommended method of marking battlefield graves - I've seen it described in CWGC archive files. The other recommended method was a short wooden stake with the man's details written in graphite pencil - the stake planted at a 45 deg angle over the grave, writing facing downwards. It is unlikely that such records would be retained once noted by a GRU and either an exhumation carried out or a "permanent" cross erected. (Crosses over battlefield graves seem to have been far less usual than some believe).

"Paperwork tucked away" ? Not that I know of. There are individual cemetery files which have not been released, but the likelihood of there being material relating to a particular man's burial circumstances in one of those is remote.

Tom

[seaforths]

Tom, thank you for the extra information and clarification, of course they must have had a finite amount of room for storage and couldn't possible retain everything for each individual and sad though that is now they had to work with what was practical at the time. It's such a shame they didn't retain the maps though because the IWM have not been handling queries for such a long time. The last time I spoke to them they told me they didn't have the staff to manage queries on maps or anything else because of the ongoing work and the forthcoming anniversary. Hopefully, their stance on that might change now they have re-opened to the public.

Trying to find the correct map for exhumations in Germany is a nightmare and the maps at Kew are so poorly filed and organised it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack so until the IWM play ball again, I am snookered! The map I want may well be at Kew, locating it is another matter although I did find a clue in one map there as to the series I need - which CWGC doesn't give but was unable to find the correct map of that series.

[stiletto_33853]

Shiny,

Certainly cannot answer for all belongings. I have been looking at 8 soldiers of The Rifle Brigade who were found while they were digging concentration pits at La Brique British Cemetery No.2 where one was identified by his disc and a crucifix (Everitt in the attached image). The family in 1923 wrote to The Army Pay Office at Winchester in 1923 thanking them for sending this crucifix to them.

Agreed I was maybe hoping for a little more information, however there are some marvelous records there which help a great deal having just come across a few men that were buried by the Germans in a little cemetery just behind the front line in 1915 which has suprised me considering the fighting in that area over a prolonged period of time.

Andy

[Shiny]

Morning all,

Thanks for the comments, as I said I'm not complaining I think I'd just hoped for more based on today's standards which obviously just isn't realistic.

When you look in the right hand column though it has a reference number written in red. That must relate to another document somewhere?

Michael

Just a thought but I wonder if the Red Cross records will link up with any of this when they are released?

Edited 21 July , 2014 by Shiny

[johntaylor]

Like other people, I'm finding the new records on the website tremendously useful but I still can't download any of them. Is it just me or are other people having the same problem? If so, does anyone know when this function will be added?

Thanks, John

[GraemeClarke]

John

No problem here downloading them.

What appears to be your problem ??

Graeme

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

When you look in the right hand column though it has a reference number written in red. That must relate to another document somewhere?

Concentration - Fred.jpg

Just a thought but I wonder if the Red Cross records will link up with any of this when they are released?

The number in red on Greenacre's form is his regimental number !

I suppose there may be a chance of the Red Cross records showing something relevant for a man who died as a Pow away from the battle zone, but they aren't going to hold anything on soldiers other than Pows.

Tom