Ossuary at Verdun

[egbert]

Phil, to answer some of your questions:

According to Article 225 Versailles Treaty , the French were responsible for the German war dead on their territory. The advantage of the allied war grave commissions was that they were allowed to recover their dead, identify them and bury them in their national war cemeteries. German dead were all collected and recovered by the French Etat Civile and German PoWs and concentrated to larger cemeteries. Access was denied for German associations or government officials until 1926 when France accepted a "supplementary activity" by the VdK finally.

So again, the collection and identification of German dead in the Verdun area was a French obligation according to the Treaty of Versailles. W/r to the ossuairy most of the bones/bone fragments were collected in 1918/19 until 1920 and temporarily stored in the makeshift ossuairy in 1920. There was no possibility to intervene in the French work on the battlefields. For the next 6 years Germany had no influence in the recovery of German war dead. Regardless of how many German bones are put to rest in today's ossuary, it must be understood that the vast majority was collected until 1920.

[phil andrade]

Thanks again, egbert.

Makeshift ossuary ?

That's a topic worthy of further research.

A lot to think about here.

I wonder if the Verdun approach was formulaic, in the manner of NDL, or whether there were perceptions that it was unique, and needed some special refinements.

It's certainly unique in terms of scale.

Phil (PJA)

[Christina Holstein]

There was indeed a makeshift Ossuary until about 1926. The bones were gathered up and stored in boxes marked with the name of the sector where they were found. The building didn't stand where the current ossuary stands but over towards the house which is today opposite the café called the Abri des Pelerins. The first bones were transferred from there to the unfinished Ossuary building in (I think) 1926.

Ossuaries were common outside the UK before WWI and I don't think the idea of gathering up bones and putting them in a common grave was unusual. It's the size of the Verdun ossuary that's unusual.

this link has information about the transfer of the first bones and a photo of the original ossuary building:

http://aufildesmotsetdelhistoire.unblog.fr/2009/06/15/ceremonies-a-douaumont-en-septembre-1927/

Chfristina

[ph0ebus]

The temporary ossuary and the ceremony consecrating the ground upon which it would stand was mentioned in the second book I had linked to in a previous post of mine in this thread, on pages 227-228 of "Heroes of the Ruins".

[egbert]

Professor Dr Krumeich is one of the renowned WWI experts in Germany and has strong links to France where he serves in several commissions on matters of the Grande Guerre, like

Vice president Comité Directeur du Centre de Recherche de l'Historial de la Grande Guerre, Péronne ,

or the prestigious international commission that deals with the French government centenary ceremonies for 11.Nov 2014, or if you wish more proof of French recognition, member of the Académie des sciences, belles-lettres et arts de Rouen Chevalier dans l' Ordre des Palmes Académiques de la République Française .

Well why do I mention this excerpts from his vita?

This afternoon I contacted him directly and asked him about the ossuary and it's estimated 70.000 dead German human remains. Within the hour I got a reply.

He has made his point in the renowned Géo-Histoire that later produced a historical essay about the matter (I have the file in my hand). Since than he is in constant contact with the Director of the Ossuary as well as with the President of the Ossuary. They both and no other French Verdun historian doubt or object the claimed number of some 70.000 German remains inside the ossuary, based on the math. He further elaborates that no single competent French historian knowledgeable with Verdun questions the number. His reply is pretty complex and he further elaborates a side story that in 1919 the French even raised the thesis that the "Boche"-bones are distinguishable by their higher weight (than French weight of bones), but that was quickly abandoned and in general it was already then accepted that about an equal number of German and French bones were gathered and put to rest in the ossuary.

[cdr]

very interesting topic. Egbert

Another example of a joint 'travail de mémoire' as the French call it

http://dfg-lfa.org/2014/01/gedenkveranstaltung-100-jahre-erster-weltkrieg/

Carl

[phil andrade]

Egbert,

Let me reiterate how much I appreciate the effort you have made here.

I challenged you to authenticate the claim that 70,000 Germans are interred in the Ossuary, and you have not only done so, but also carried the investigation further.

Why, I wonder, did Germans acquiesce in this mass disposal of their dead under the French aegis when in other parts of the front - and Flanders comes to mind - they succeeded in recovering and burying their own dead ?

Phil (PJA)

[Jack Sheldon]

Phil

Post war they did not do the recovering. Not only that, but the collection and subsequent reburial of remains was frequently conducted in a totally haphazard and slip shod manner by the French authorities. In the wake of the war, with feelings running high, it is hardly surprising of course, but I can easily point you to examples of where this work fell far short of what was accepted by the French authorities at Versailles as squarely their reponsibility. Examples include the dispersal or removal of bodies from established German cemeteries (complete with headstones) at Le Sars and Miraumont on the Somme. There is today absolutely no trace of these men. Another shocker is to be found at Caudry near the Le Cateau battlefield. Between 1921 and 1924, 2,000 German casualties buried in 28 surrounding communes were reburied here. The mass grave contains 1,562 burials, only 90 of which are named. Don't even start me on the mass grave at St Laurent Blangy which seems to have been used as a convenient landfill site, rather than an honoured last resting place ...

Jack

[egbert]

Without distracting from the Verdun matters, may I only complement Jack's observation w/r to the neglected German war graves after the war despite an implemented Versailles Treaty article 225. Here on GWF you see examples of German war graves deliberately or not, neglected by the victors. That obviously caused many many formerly known graves, withering away to an unknown status at time of relocation to the big concentration cemeteries, later in the 1920s:

 

 

An interesting question is: when I look at the pictures of the 1927 inauguration ceremonies for the permanent Ossuaire Douaumont, did the "ancient combatants" and the eternally hatred already know or grasp that they carry coffin-sections with 50% German dead draped with the French tricolore?

Anyway-It is almost an irony of history

[phil andrade]

Perhaps the Ossuary system has the answer, then....no need to count, no need to identify.

Your earlier observations about the dubious nationality of those KNOWN UNTO GOD in places like Tyne Cot has got me wondering about the CWGC now, Jack.

The Commission is unequivocal : THEIR NAME LIVETH FOR EVERMORE....every single soldier, sailor or airman who died is identified and commemorated by name. Yet we are told that 188,010 of them from the Great War are unidentified burials, implying that there is certainty as to their Commonwealth status, even if they are KNOWN UNTO GOD. So, while we are given a definite number, are we to accept that some of those 188,010 are German, and that the number of lost British bodies is greater than admitted ?

Perhaps some of them are in ossuaries, too.

Phil (PJA)

[ph0ebus]

Perhaps the Ossuary system has the answer, then....no need to count, no need to identify.

Your earlier observations about the dubious nationality of those KNOWN UNTO GOD in places like Tyne Cot has got me wondering about the CWGC now, Jack.

The Commission is unequivocal : THEIR NAME LIVETH FOR EVERMORE....every single soldier, sailor or airman who died is identified and commemorated by name. Yet we are told that 188,010 of them from the Great War are unidentified burials, implying that there is certainty as to their Commonwealth status, even if they are KNOWN UNTO GOD. So, while we are given a definite number, are we to accept that some of those 188,010 are German, and that the number of lost British bodies is greater than admitted ?

Perhaps some of them are in ossuaries, too.

Phil (PJA)

This is the proverbial can of worms that has been opened on the GWF before. You will find passionate thoughts about the answer to your question in abundance, both in the negative and the affirmative.

-Daniel

[phil andrade]

An interesting question is: when I look at the pictures of the 1927 inauguration ceremonies for the permanent Ossuaire Douaumont, did the "ancient combatants" and the eternally hatred already know that they carry coffin-sections with 50% German dead draped with the French tricolore?

Exactly !

This is one of the things that I've been trying to emphasise, egbert.

Phil (PJA)

[Fattyowls]

Would I be correct in saying that the French alone placed remains of the fallen in ossuaries and that there are four in France and one in Belgium? I've visited Douaumont, La Ferme du Navarin in Champagne, Notre Dame de Lorette and the ossuary at Mt Kemmel but not Dormans or the Hartmannswilerkopf/Viell Armand. Whilst I have visited German cemeteries with mass graves I am not aware of any ossuaries as such. The only CWGC site that has a mass grave that I know of is VC Corner at Fromelles.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this outstanding thread on all sides of the debate, I've learned more about European current affairs in the last week than in the preceding decade and the level of expertise is brilliant.

Pete.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I have no idea who pulled the flags from the top of Ft Douaumont but it was the local Anciens Combattants in the area who objected so strongly to it, backed by the Mayor of Verdun. Clearly there are some people in the area who have not read the memo on reconciliation and new identity.

Christina

Hi Christina,

I dont want to seem like I am trying to hard to prove a point, but this issue has really caught my imagination... being an Ancien Combattant I posted this question on a group page... admittedly not enough to say it is a definate proof, but 13 answers had an overwhelming Yes. So far noone against.

Having said that, I would admit that Ancien Combattant groups are the last lot I would involved in matters of diplomacy as in the past it was agreed that British buying Holiday homes in Normandy/Bretagne should be kicked out, the question of whether women should be allowed to wear veils should not arrive as "they" should not be in France anyway, almost descending as far as to whether women should be allowed to drive and a few more examples where you would scratch your head and wonder if something had been added to the water...

Admittedly the oldest in my group is an Algeria vet, so maybe the Verdun area Group has more "older types"

4 Typical answers

-Exact. Tous ces pauvres gars de Verdun étaient plus a plaindre qu'à blâmer, côté allemand s'entend.

-pour moi c'est une évidence, surtout quand on évalue les relations franco-allemandes depuis quelques décennies

-oui, ce sont des soldats toutes nationalités confondues

-Oui ils ont ramasser ensemble

Best

Chris

P.S. as for the Major... is he not the man who is trying to trademark the word "Verdun" ?

[phil andrade]

Would you mind translating those four typical answers, Chris ?

My French is rudimentary, and I'm anxious to be clear as to those responses, although I reckon I might have the gist of them.

Phil (PJA)

[nigelcave]

For what it is worth, the Italians use ossuaries - there is a rather impressive one at Rovereto; and Austro-Hungarian troops are interred there as well (they were concentrated in from communes and other burial sites) - tho' I must admit I cannot recall seeing the names of the identified on the walls of the great chapel arrangement that sits on top of the burials. There is, of course, the famous huge bell at Rovereto (or at least on a nearby mountain side site) using piecs of artillery from all the combatant nations in its composition and which is rung each night a very considerable number of times - maybe a hundred or so.

[phil andrade]

Would I be correct in saying that the French alone placed remains of the fallen in ossuaries and that there are four in France and one in Belgium? I've visited Douaumont, La Ferme du Navarin in Champagne, Notre Dame de Lorette and the ossuary at Mt Kemmel but not Dormans or the Hartmannswilerkopf/Viell Armand. Whilst I have visited German cemeteries with mass graves I am not aware of any ossuaries as such. The only CWGC site that has a mass grave that I know of is VC Corner at Fromelles.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this outstanding thread on all sides of the debate, I've learned more about European current affairs in the last week than in the preceding decade and the level of expertise is brilliant.

Pete.

The Italians used ossuaries, too, although this pertains to their own front : the Isonzo etc.

Now I mention it, perhaps they used one in France, too : they lost thousands of men in the Marne battle of 1918, and I'm wondering whether they have put one in their big cemetery in that sector. If so, it's a supplementary feature, because there are several thousand of their dead buried in individual graves.

The other " Latin " contingent on the Western Front was Portuguese....their dead are buried in conventional graves at Neuve Chapelle.

As for the Germans, while they had to accept the mass graves, I would have thought that they were distressed at the prospect of consignment to ossuaries. I find it hard to articulate why I feel that way about them. Maybe it's because I associate ossuaries with the latin, catholic people....although I realise there are many catholics in Germany, especially Bavaria.

Phil (PJA)

[Fattyowls]

For what it is worth, the Italians use ossuaries - there is a rather impressive one at Rovereto; and Austro-Hungarian troops are interred there as well (they were concentrated in from communes and other burial sites) - tho' I must admit I cannot recall seeing the names of the identified on the walls of the great chapel arrangement that sits on top of the burials. There is, of course, the famous huge bell at Rovereto (or at least on a nearby mountain side site) using piecs of artillery from all the combatant nations in its composition and which is rung each night a very considerable number of times - maybe a hundred or so.

Thanks Nigel; I'd forgotten about the Italians as usual. It's interesting that the mixing of the remains of both sides applied here too.

The Italians used ossuaries, too, although this pertains to their own front : the Isonzo etc.

Now I mention it, perhaps they used one in France, too : they lost thousands of men in the Marne battle of 1918, and I'm wondering whether they have put one in their big cemetery in that sector. If so, it's a supplementary feature, because there are several thousand of their dead buried in individual graves.

The other " Latin " contingent on the Western Front was Portuguese....their dead are buried in conventional graves at Neuve Chapelle.

As for the Germans, while they had to accept the mass graves, I would have thought that they were distressed at the prospect of consignment to ossuaries. I find it hard to articulate why I feel that way about them. Maybe it's because I associate ossuaries with the latin, catholic people....although I realise there are many catholics in Germany, especially Bavaria.

Phil (PJA)

Phil

I've been impressed with your valiant and unbending quest for the facts in this thread; it's brought out so much good stuff. I'm really interested in the concept of an ossuary; I'd not thought about the religious conotations. Until relatively recently I was more familiar with the French battlefields than the British and Commonwealth but I tended to see them from a topographical viewpoint; my interest was all sightlines and the lie of the land. I tried to be as objective as possible and not being German or French I didn't have the emotional pull of the thousands of dead. All that has changed for me in the last few years and I'm now starting to see all of the battlefields completely differently.

Pete.

P.S. I was at the Portuguese cemetery in September; I know all cemeteries can be sad but somehow that one always seems just that little bit sadder somehow.

[phil andrade]

Thanks for your gracious comments, Pete.

Have you visited Solferino ?

The ossuary there shocked me.

I agree with your depiction of the Portuguese cemetery. It seems so forlorn...almost a testimony to the incongruity of the Portuguese contingent which was blasted away on 9 April 1918.

Phil (PJA)

[Fattyowls]

Have you visited Solferino ?

Only the Paris metro station unfortunately. Not big fans of the 2nd Empire at Owls Acres; however I did walk past one of the last emperor's homes just this afternoon.....

Pete.

[tim_oz]

The Italian ossuary’s are interesting as they were all built in the 1930’s and really reflect Mussolini’s desire to create monuments to his ideas of Italian militarism. Immediately after the war there were numerous cemeteries along the fronts but these were cleared, apparently not very diligently and the remains interred in the ossuary’s. A lot of the original cemeteries are still easily identifiable and some have been restored.

Apparently the Germans were not supporters of this process and did not want their own cemeteries disturbed which is why there are still a considerable number of these to be found behind the Italian front. Many of the ossuary’s with sections for Austro-Hungarian dead such as one at Monte Grappa were in fact built by the Italians. The German’s did agree to build two ossuary’s of their own at Passo Pordoi and Tolmin, but this was to deal with bodies exhumed by the Italians from Italian cemeteries.

Tim B

[AOK4]

Perhaps the Ossuary system has the answer, then....no need to count, no need to identify.

Your earlier observations about the dubious nationality of those KNOWN UNTO GOD in places like Tyne Cot has got me wondering about the CWGC now, Jack.

The Commission is unequivocal : THEIR NAME LIVETH FOR EVERMORE....every single soldier, sailor or airman who died is identified and commemorated by name. Yet we are told that 188,010 of them from the Great War are unidentified burials, implying that there is certainty as to their Commonwealth status, even if they are KNOWN UNTO GOD. So, while we are given a definite number, are we to accept that some of those 188,010 are German, and that the number of lost British bodies is greater than admitted ?

Perhaps some of them are in ossuaries, too.

Phil (PJA)

Phil,

Several hundred (if not more) British soldiers were buried by the Germans on their cemeteries. After the war, several of these graves could not be found back (usually because of shelling of the cemeteries, crosses destroyed and exact maps lost, etc.). All these British soldiers have somewhere in a nearby British cemetery a headstone, sometimes combined with a Duhallow block, explaining that these people were once buried in a German cemetery but haven't been found back. However no remains are buried under these stones. All these unknown British soldiers left on German cemeteries in Flanders have been reburied when the German cemeteries were rearranged as unknown German soldiers around 1955-1957, the vast majority in the comrade grave of Langemark.

I personally think the plaque with the two names in Langemarck is a bit of a joke as there are probably a few hundred British remains there, but these others have a headstone on one of the other cemeteries. Probably they don't want to upset the public and come to terms with the fact that British and German dead are there united in death (Im leben ein Feind, im Tode vereint)?

Jan

[phil andrade]

Does any battlefield in the world have anything as chilling to offer as a monument as Douamont Ossuary ?

I doubt it.

I found visiting it a rather ghastly experience, despite the delightful company I enjoyed in my tour of October 2006, when you and Tony met me and my pal there, Christina.

There is inspiration to be found in the redemptive theme of reconciliation and Franco German harmony.

As David Cameron might say, " I get that."

But I can understand another impulse too.

At a time when the number of French people who prefer to live in London exceeds the official number of their casualties in the 1916 battle of Verdun, there might be a certain reassurance in contemplating the enormous achievement of France in standing firm in that fatal test.

Maybe we all need somewhere where we might reflect :

Go, stranger passing by, and tell Sparta
That here, obedient to her law, we lie.

Phil (PJA)

[egbert]

Phil,

Several hundred (if not more) British soldiers were buried by the Germans on their cemeteries. After the war, several of these graves could not be found back (usually because of shelling of the cemeteries, crosses destroyed and exact maps lost, etc.). All these British soldiers have somewhere in a nearby British cemetery a headstone, sometimes combined with a Duhallow block, explaining that these people were once buried in a German cemetery but haven't been found back. However no remains are buried under these stones. All these unknown British soldiers left on German cemeteries in Flanders have been reburied when the German cemeteries were rearranged as unknown German soldiers around 1955-1957, the vast majority in the comrade grave of Langemark.

I personally think the plaque with the two names in Langemarck is a bit of a joke as there are probably a few hundred British remains there, but these others have a headstone on one of the other cemeteries. Probably they don't want to upset the public and come to terms with the fact that British and German dead are there united in death (Im leben ein Feind, im Tode vereint)?

Jan

So we have opened pandoras box.

1. The French commemorate and mourn their dead in their most holy WWI national symbol, the Douaumont ossuaire - and by today's historians it is accepted that 50% German dead are put to rest as well, totally mixed and mingled with French dead

2. As discussed in another thread, we must accept the former 1919 ff practices of farmers clearing the battlefields to add British uniform fractions, buttons and such fragments to German dead in order to receive the government sponsored prizes for finding British dead (I do not want to be sarcastic, but a British tunic found with 6 buttons could turn 6 German skeletons into British unknowns when passed over to the authorities)....

3. Jan's above mentioned fact that British dead today lie in German cemeteries as unknowns and vice versa German dead lie in CWGC cemeteries as unknown British.....

Is it time to start commemorating the Great Army where friend and foe is already united somewhere up there beyond the stars in a less nationalistic way?

The signals from the French-German side are clearly pointing in this direction.

How do the British cope with this development? As mentioned earlier in this thread by Jan, the British have a different attitude to commemorate their heroes.

Maybe the national flags of all former belligerents will fly over their respective national cemeteries in future – except in British cemeteries?

Food for thought.

[ServiceRumDiluted]

Just a thought from someone who doesn't know too much about it but has been drawn back to Verdun several times. Surely the Ossuary contains the remains of men from not only France and inevitably Germany, but also from what is now Vietnam, Senegal, Algeria and Morocco. Also is it not likely that there are some American remains there too?

Speaks to me of the pity of war for all.