Ossuary at Verdun

[seaforths]

Sly, I agree completely. With so many nationalities, there will be of course, differences of culture and differences in opinion. Hopefully there will be a mutual respect toward these and as the saying goes; you can't please all of the people all of the time. I find the developments and commemorations very interesting.

What I wasn't aware of, until reading about the various collaborations, was that the collaboration has happened for a long time. The centenary has brought it very much into the public eye and so for some like myself, unexpected. The reaction to the unexpected for some can take a little while to come to terms with and for some, acceptance, even longer if at all.

It also probably accounts for my initial post and the contents of which were the cogs of my mind turning things over and writing them down.

I will continue to follow with interest the developments and I can also see from previous posts a genuine interest to go back in time and explore the historical roots of when the collaboration began and what, if any, turnaround there was in the public view to the treatment of the soldiers of France and Germany being laid to rest together. From my minds eye, there could have been no other way because of identification issues. However there may have been some who at that time, all those years ago, chose to allow themselves to think the remains were French alone and if those thoughts gave them some solace and peace of mind to deal with their grief and feelings, so be it.

[phil andrade]

Do you think it a reasonable assumption that - by and large - the soldiers who fought at Verdun did not engage at close quarters ?

Of course, there must have been episodes of close combat - including hand to hand fighting - but the impression I get is that it was an impersonal battle of material, dominated by artillery, in which the role of the infantry was to move into the crater fields, hold on under bombardment, and then withdraw after suffering significant casualties. There were notorious sectors where villages changed hands again and again - Fleury comes to mind. That said, I suspect that it was possible to identify sectors of the battlefield where certain divisions had endured their ordeal, and to identify the bodies - or fragments - as most probably belonging to those units.

The ossuary on Mount Kemmel, for example, is depicted as a purely French establishment, sited and designed to hold the remains of five thousand Frenchmen who perished there, most of them in a catastrophic action in April 1918.

Likewise, all those thousands of dead interred as A SOLDIER OF THE GREAT WAR KNOWN UNTO GOD in Tyne Cot.....we are led to believe that they are soldiers of the British Empire. I believe that every effort was made to ensure that they were, although there has to be a degree of doubt.

This is where " I'm coming from " in my posts in this thread : not to decry the decent impulses of humanity and the remembrance of universal suffering. My interest is more prosaic, focused on the actual ability - and, more controversially, the intention - of battlefield clearance teams to identify the nationality of the dead.

Phil (PJA)

[Christina Holstein]

It is true that there were sectors of the battlefield, particularly in the ravines to the north of the main front, where there may well have been more German dead than French. I would imagine also that there were many cases in which it was clear from remains of uniforms and equipment that a soldier was French or German. Whether the battlefield clearance parties paid any attention to that, I don't know. It is always said that the purpose of the Ossuary was to house the remains of the men who did not have honoured burial and I have not seen any written evidence to suggest that choices were made or that some remains were left where they were.

Christina

[Fattyowls]

Hello,

As a Frenchman I am reading this thread with interest and I can confirm that there are different opinions, different ways of thinking and also to commemorate between us. I am not saying who is right or not, I am just saying that we are different and we do the things differently than some of you do. I find interesting the reference to the Alsace-Lorraine in the AOK4 post (with which I would tend to agree) whereas many comments often forget the Franco-Prussian war which is the starting point to understand the evolution of the relationship between France and Germany.

Sly

Sly, it is good that you provide a French perspective; I was hoping for that. It's also very true that any discusssion of this nature needs to take the events of 1870-71 into account, thanks for that too. It's easy to forget that when Fort Douaumont was built the German border was so close; I often wonder if you could see what was then Germany on a clear day from the 155mm cupola.

Pete.

It is true that there were sectors of the battlefield, particularly in the ravines to the north of the main front, where there may well have been more German dead than French. I would imagine also that there were many cases in which it was clear from remains of uniforms and equipment that a soldier was French or German. Whether the battlefield clearance parties paid any attention to that, I don't know. It is always said that the purpose of the Ossuary was to house the remains of the men who did not have honoured burial and I have not seen any written evidence to suggest that choices were made or that some remains were left where they were.

Christina

Christina

Thanks for the extra information; the whole thread has been very illuminating.

Pete.

[Christina Holstein]

Pete,

You could see right out over the pre-1914 German border from the top of Ft Douaumont ,Fort Vaux , Hardaumont, Bezonvaux fieldwork , Damloup Battery and everything else along the eastern Heights. On a clear day you can see St Privat on the hills west of the Moselle, the site of a decisive battle in the Franco-Russian War.

Christina

[David Ridgus]

Pete,

You could see right out over the pre-1914 German border from the top of Ft Douaumont ,Fort Vaux , Hardaumont, Bezonvaux fieldwork , Damloup Battery and everything else along the eastern Heights. On a clear day you can see St Privat on the hills west of the Moselle, the site of a decisive battle in the Franco-Russian War.

Christina

With our shared and deep interest I think people on this Forum tend not to take things out of context and make every attempt to see the wider picture. But nevertheless it is good to have a thread like this and posts like your last to remind us all how an area like this is so steeped in the history of conflict and how the echoes come down to us, perhaps in ways we wouldn't expect.

It's all been a very thought provoking read today

David

[Fattyowls]

Pete,

You could see right out over the pre-1914 German border from the top of Ft Douaumont ,Fort Vaux , Hardaumont, Bezonvaux fieldwork , Damloup Battery and everything else along the eastern Heights. On a clear day you can see St Privat on the hills west of the Moselle, the site of a decisive battle in the Franco-Russian War.

Christina

Thanks Christina; I hadn't realised that Gravelotte and St Privat were so close. The fact that you can see the old border is why the forts are there after all; the Ulhans could probably reach the Meuse Heights in less than two hours at a brisk trot. I need to go back soon; if you see someone stood by the 155mm cupola on Douaumont juggling map, compass, camera and heavy East German binoculars looking out over the Woevre plain that will be me.....

Pete.

[phil andrade]

Verdun, more than any other battlefield that comes to mind, represents the soul of a nation.

The Ossuary , one might have thought , would reflect that.

Histories written in the last generation will emphasise that the Ossuary contains the remains of German and French soldiers. Was this openly countenanced when the place was consecrated ? Was it accepted as a necessary feature of battlefield clearance, which was an unpalatable but inevitable consequence of the endeavour ? In other words, a thing that happened but that people preferred to keep quiet about so soon after the conflict.

The Ossuary is, perhaps, the focal point of a site of national commemoration. Unique, surely...although the National Cemetery at Gettysburg offers some form of analogy : another place regarded as Hallowed Ground. Quite a stir was caused in recent years when a meticulous researcher suggested that among the dead interred there are one or two who fought for the " other side."

It is said that the remains of 130,000 soldiers are in Douamont Ossuary. This figure is probably predicated on a post war estimate that a total of 420,000 soldiers died on the Verdun battlefield throughout the war. We have to reconcile ourselves to guesswork.

How different from the Ossuary on Mount Kemmel, which gives a precise figure of the dead, with a certainty as to their status as Frenchmen. I wonder how the huge osssuary at Neuville St Vast compares in this repsect.

Perhaps it's fitting that the Ossuary at Verdun symbolises the battle's image as the ultimate in anonymous and industrialised massacre. The complete triumph of material over flesh and blood.

Intrigued as to how far its provenance as a Franco - German charnel house was openly acknowledged at inception.

Phil (PJA)

[andalucia]

A German family's grief is the same as French family's grief. Great to see that fact acknowledged. May they all Rest in Peace.

-Dave.

Well Said.

[Seadog]

That is so obvious as to be not in dispute. However the placing of a named plaque to an enemy whose country was dedicated to “bleed France white” by waging a battle of attrition at Verdun being located in what appeared to me after visiting the Ossuary as being a national shrine to the sacrifice made by France in that terrible conflict and which as suggested in this thread could be the first of many such plaques is in my opinion a step to far. Surely the most appropriate gesture would have been to erect a plaque that records the fact that both French and German soldiers remains found on the battlefield lie in the building.

Norman

[Sly]

Norman,

It seems that it was a "step too far" for you... not for me.

Sly

[ph0ebus]

Norman,

It seems that it was a "step too far" for you... not for me.

mitterand.jpg

Sly

Indeed, a picture is worth a thousand words.

Some folks, even in this enlightened day and age, like their history tidy, but history as we all know is anything but tidy. I am thinking of something I saw recently where American rank-and-file soldiers from WWII recently met face to face with the very same men from the Japanese army who had tried to kill them almost seventy years ago, and they embraced each other as brothers. Surely if they can make such a move towards reconciliation, perhaps we can at least consider doing the same?

[egbert]

Old soldiers never die; but nationalistic people filled with feelings of hatred
mercifully will fade away . . .

[CROONAERT]

Old soldiers never die; but nationalistic people filled with feelings of hatred

mercifully will fade away . . .

Indeed... thankfully.

I find something quite beautiful about the fact that nations can, today, enter into joint commemorations - regardless of blinkered small-mindedness - such as these German/American commemorations from the Huertgen area (another war, I know, but the blood is even fresher here)...

1. Kesternich (plaque located on the town war memorial (shock, horror!!!!) that commemorates the dead from the town for the two world wars... 'Im frieden vereint' says it all, I think!

[CROONAERT]

2. Simonskall...

[CROONAERT]

3. American plaque/memorial erected to a very gallant 'enemy' in the entrance of Huertgen German military cemetery...

[CROONAERT]

4. Soviet military cemetery at Rurburg - maintained by the VdK with as much care and duty as they do German graves...

...

[CROONAERT]

5.. joint memorial to 2 American soldiers and one unidentified German near to the - later discovered - location of their (joint) field grave. Raffelsbrand Heights...

[seaforths]

You know the comments about bleeding France...were not made by our generation. Seeing that photograph put me in mind of an occurrence a few years ago.

Before our Battle of Britain commemoration and ball we had something of a dillemma. There were four French and one German working on the floor above and we thought it would be appropriate to invite them. The dilemma involved the German. Should we invite him? Would he be offended? Everyone wanted to invite him but it seemed a bit delicate however the decision was made to invite him and then let him make the decision himself on whether he wanted to attend. We would respect his decision either way.

He accepted the invitation. On the night, he arrived alone and we greeted him. He attended the ceremonial part of the evening and I watched him as he listened and watched the events intently. The poetry, speeches (Churchill's famous speech), the casualties and hardships, the ensign was lowered and the last post played. Afterwards, the ball itself with the Glen Miller and Vera Lynn tribute acts. We made sure he wasn't alone and his glass was never empty. He asked lots of questions and received lots of responses. In turn, many questions were asked of him too. It was a mutual exchange of information in a friendly atomosphere.

At the end of the evening a small bunch of us were left; half a dozen Brits, four French and a German. We were about to say our goodbyes for the evening when...(excuse the Fawlty Towers quote) he started it. He began to cry and he explained how much it meant that we had invited him. He was anxious when he accepted the invitation but as the night grew closer, he became more anxious and thought he might come for a while and leave early. He was overcome with the welcome we gave him on this of all nights and that he would never forget it. It wasn't too long before we were all blubbing with him. We hugged and made each other soggy in the process and he might have arrived alone but he didn't leave alone. After that, they were more than the four French and the German working upstairs - they were our friends.

It was and is, I think, time for healing, for all time, for both wars...yes the photograph says it all.

I hope you will forgive my personal anecdote and memory...but I have never forgotten it either.

[Christina Holstein]

I suppose that when the Ossuary was inaugurated there were some people who regarded it as an entirely French memorial and hoped that only French bones would be placed there but whether that was a widespread view, I don't know. In my experience of local associations and events over the last 20 years, the view of ordinary people in the area has been overwhelmingly that the men of both sides suffered equally. However, even in the early 90s we were a long way from the war and it may be that the view has changed over time.

I would assume that there will be a good turnout of ordinary people for the unveiling of the first German name but whether senior politicians will be represented is another matter. One of my friends with good contacts in Germany will probably make sure that a German school party attends but there may be no French school party although there will undoubtedly be French colour parties, re-enactors and a band. When 25 of the 27 French soldiers found in Fleury last May were interred in front of the Ossuary in November on a day of dense fog, a German school party came from quite far away but no French school had shown interest. No doubt the mayors of Fleury and Douaumont will attend but I would be surprised if the mayor of Verdun took part.

I think that as long as such events as this are organised by the individual families and the Ossuary, there will be no protest. However, if it was felt that the push to commemorate German soldiers came not from the families but, in this centenary year, from the European Union, that might be a very different matter. People might wish to remember and accept but they don't want it wished on them by politicians.

Seaforths, that is a wonderful story. Thank you.

Christina

[andalucia]

We are all now friends, the past is just that, the past.

My Great Grandfather is listed on the Menin Gate memorial, and I would have no problem if a memorial to German soldiers was placed on it.

Respect and remembrance to all.

[phil andrade]

Thanks for addressing my points, Christina.

There is, I reckon, scope for research into this theme.

You would have thought that Verdun was the one place where the French would wish to retain " exclusive" rights to the ossuary, but I suppose they had to make a virtue of necessity.

Press coverage of the opening ceremony would be revealing. Perhaps the archives throw light on it.

I am still exercised by the fact that there are ossuaries which are supposedly exclusive ( Kemmel ) ; and that the CWGC implies that those buried as A SOLDIER OF THE GREAT WAR are from the British Empire. If this could be accomplished at Passchendaele , then I'm bound to wonder why this couldn't be done at Verdun.

On no account imagine that I disapprove of the plaque to the German missing at Douamont. I'm all for anything that embraces humanity.

At the same time, I think we should acknowledge the need to establish commemorative rites that focus exclusively on the nation - or , as the CWGC might like to state " the family of nations". This must have been enormously important to the bereaved families and friends of the dead of 1914-18, especially, I would have thought, for the French people in the 1920s and 30s when they reflected on the ordeal of Verdun.

Edit : I am fairly confident that rather more Frenchmen than Germans were killed at Verdun. You will agree that while the casualty totals for the 1916 battle were almost identical for the two sides, the French loss contained a much higher proportion posted as killed or missing. I have seen figures from the German War Graves society that indicate that more Germans than French are buried in cemeteries around the battlefield area, and from this evidence I draw a tentative conclusion that the majority of the bones in the Ossuary are French.

Phil (PJA)

[CROONAERT]

Edit : I am fairly confident that rather more Frenchmen than Germans were killed at Verdun. You will agree that while the casualty totals for the 1916 battle were almost identical for the two sides, the French loss contained a much higher proportion posted as killed or missing. I have seen figures from the German War Graves society that indicate that more Germans than French are buried in cemeteries around the battlefield area, and from this evidence I draw a tentative conclusion that the majority of the bones in the Ossuary are French.

It would have to be a VERY tentative conclusion drawn from that evidence , Phil, as it must be borne in mind that the bones within the ossuaire are not exclusively from the 1916 battle ... the so-called '2nd Battle of Verdun' of the summer of 1917 being far more costly (in human lives) to the Germans than the French for example. (It's been a while since I walked the cloisters of the ossuaire, so cannot quite remember, but do I recall some of the sections covering areas such as 'Les Eparges' too?)

You'll also have to take into consideration that the return of French bodies for private burial (some 10% ?) outweighed that of the Germans and that many of those buried in a military plot in a civil cemetery rather than in a listed necropole nationale also quite often slip the net. Also, the figures for German graves in cemeteries for the battlefield area can be a little misleading if just looking purely at figures as the majority of German cemeteries in that area are 'rear' cemeteries and include casualties from a number of sectors away from the actual 'Verdun' (1916) battle area,including a great number of casualties from the various actions in the general area of 1914, 1915 and 1918 such as the Woevre, the Argonne and the Meuse in general. The French cemeteries appear to be more 'localised' to specific areas and , thus, are more likely to contain graves actually from the actions in that area.

Dave.

[phil andrade]

Thank you, Dave, it was my hope that you would chip in, because I know you have some profound knowledge about this.

If the figure of 420,000 dead for the Verdun sector for the entire war is plausible, then I would guess that we can attribute roughly half of that total to the 1916 battle. Yes, I take your point .....there was an awful lot of killing there before and after 1916, in which the Germans took very heavy punishment.

The most intense period of battle at Verdun in 1916 - February to mid July - did, I believe, cost the lives of more Frenchmen than Germans.

I must try and research the history of the clearance of the field, and see what I can find out.

I wonder what remonstrations the Germans were able - and willing - to make in the decade after the war about the recovery and interment of their dead at Verdun.

Phil (PJA)

[CROONAERT]

...The most intense period of battle at Verdun in 1916 - February to mid July - did, I believe, cost the lives of more Frenchmen than Germans...

More Frenchmen did, indeed, die in the 1916 battle than Germans. However, my point is to illustrate how the cemeteries of the area cannot really be taken as a tool to acquire representative figures. Take , for example, the official French Necropoles Nationale within a (roughly) 9 or 10 mile radius of the centre of Verdun (thereby encompassing the battlefield up to Cote 304 in the west and beyond the (1916) battlefield in the east)... there are something like 56,171 graves (this includes a spattering of Russian, Luxembourger, Belgian, British, etc along with a few WW2) contained in the cemeteries (Douaumont Ossuaire not included) associated with this battle. Within the same area, there are just 19,850 German (and Austro-Hungarian).... 17 cemeteries (not all included in the total figure as not all are associated with the 1916 battle) versus just 5. As you can see, this would give a totally wrong idea of casualties, especially when considering that the majority of German cemeteries containing casualties of this battle lie further away (Danvillers, Dun, Dannevoux, Mangiennes, Conflans, Piennes, Metz, Thionville, etc...even as far as southern Belgium) and are heavily 'diluted' with casualties from a far-stretching area of battle and time-zone.

It is, to an extent, possible to locate the French cemeteries that are 'associated' with the 1916 battle and separate them from the others (though many of the 'others' can also contain remains from the battle), but it would be very difficult to do the same for the German as they all tend to be more '1914-1918' than the French.

Dave

(PS...nothing 'scientific' in the above, by the way - it's just 'roughly speaking' from looking at a few maps and the cemetery details - so, in other words, don't quote me on any of it! )