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Remembered Today:

Ossuary at Verdun


Christina Holstein

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YZuber a reference to Massin - Anloy, 22-08 -1914, and it said Burial details counted 5 or 6 french dead for every two german....yes, the germans might well have counted, but I reckon you're right : they made the civilians do the work of burial.

Phil (PJA)

I often wonder if this quote is of any value at all. If I was fighting on a 10km wide front, and in one small sector a MGK caught a French battalion in the open and slaughtered them.... I could then concentrate on that sector and say "burial details counted 50 French dead for every 3 Germans".... maybe 1km further down the Road a German company was caught in a field, and the ratio was 1:35, the other side winning...

I often think of the Lies, damned lies and statistics quote...

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You do have a point, Chris, but I would reckon that this observation alluded to a fairly big battlefield sector, and what we read about those opening battles of the Frontiers certainly bears out that kind of ratio.

When we read about twenty seven thousand Frenchmen being killed on a single day, even a kill ratio of five to two in Germany's favour would still entail heavy losses for the Germans.

At the risk of seeming naive, I don't think that those Germans were lying in this instance.

As it happens, Falkenhayn claimed a similar Franco - German ratio for Verdun in 1916. In that case, I would endorse your closing comments.

Phil (PJA)

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I often think of the Lies, damned lies and statistics quote...

That's why I only trust the statistics that I have falsified by myself.

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You do have a point, Chris, but I would reckon that this observation alluded to a fairly big battlefield sector, and what we read about those opening battles of the Frontiers certainly bears out that kind of ratio.

When we read about twenty seven thousand Frenchmen being killed on a single day, even a kill ratio of five to two in Germany's favour would still entail heavy losses for the Germans.

At the risk of seeming naive, I don't think that those Germans were lying in this instance.

As it happens, Falkenhayn claimed a similar Franco - German ratio for Verdun in 1916. In that case, I would endorse your closing comments.

Phil (PJA)

Hi,

I doubt the Germans made an outright lie, and it may very well be the correct ratio, its rather that although I never did get around to reading Zuber, the one time I did flip through a book, my gut feeling was, he had a set of definate beliefs/Ideas... and took the facts that supported these.

Ergo, my question as to whether this could be seen as an accurate figure for the whole, or at least large sections of the front. If it was made by a Regimental or Divisional commander, I would question whether it could be used as a genral rule of thumb.

best

Chris

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Chris,

Your viewpoint wins my respect.

Circumspection is required.

You will, I trust, agree that if the French did indeed lose twenty seven thousand dead on August 22nd 1914, it's quite plausible -- given the catastrophic nature of their tactical defeats that day, and the seismic scale of the slaughter inflicted on them-- that the aggregate German loss that day conformed with that ratio mentioned on that particular battlefield.

Even that would have cost the Germans tens of thousands of casualties.

Phil (PJA)

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That's why I only trust the statistics that I have falsified by myself.

Absolutely outstanding, Egbert. I wish I had thought of it first ...

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I heard today that there are indeed objections to the inclusion of a German name in the Ossuary. I suspect the complaints I've seen are quotations from letters to the newspaper but I'll find out more. The view expressed is that the Ossuary is a memorial to the poilus who fought the Battle of Verdun and that while reconciliation is a good thing, that doesn't mean forgetting what happened. The writers use such words as angry and scandalised and one of them regards the whole thing as a media event.

Christina

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Of the French, by the French and for the French.....at least, that's what I suspect many people in France would prefer the Ossuary to be.

Phil (PJA )

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Christina I note with interest your post regarding objections to the plaque, in my opinion this was a very short sighted proposal indeed and could lead to just the opposite of what the instigators intended. The trouble as I see it is will the plaque be a symbolic record of the fact that there most certainly are German remains as well as French in the Ossuary and a one-off in which case I reiterate that this could have been better achieved by simply recording such a fact within the building. By placing a named plaque will in my opinion lead to other German families wishing to do the same and how could such requests be refused when such a plaque has already been installed. If such requests are granted will these not completely alter the whole concept and original intention of the Ossuary and may in an extreme scenario lead to major problems.

Regards

Norman

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You will know much more about this than I, Christina, but do you suspect that objections to the German plaque might exemplify a prevalent French insecurity at the moment ?

Perhaps they're feeling a bit more " twitchy" about the European project today than they were when the French President and the German Chancellor held hands at Verdun a generation ago.

Now, more than then, the French need the re-assurance of their national symbols ?

Phil (PJA)

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Why is it a plaque causing such fuss? Are German men not the same as everyone else? Did their families not weep at their deaths?

I just do not see what the problem is. They deserve to be remembered as much as anyone else.

If I visit the battlefields and I bump into a German, what do I do? are there any rules on how I should react? Do I shake his hand or ignore him.

Just my humble opinion, but it's all getting a bit daft.

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IMHO the Generation who fought, can hold any grudge they want, but the Generation that follows should be required to move on.

I am always infuriated by people refering to WW2 who say "They should no longer prosecute old war criminals, so much time has passed..."... I think as long as there is a surviving victim, they have the right to insist on justice, or to carry the chip on their shoulder... but when that generation is gone, the next Generation should be forced to make a new start... The last WW1 soldier has passed on, the old grudges should be buried...

The carrying over of old grudges is what gives us half the problems we have in the world...

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Of course the German dead are every bit as worthy of commemoration.

Yes......let's embrace humanity.

Do not forget, though, that some places are of transcendental national significance.

Hundreds of thousands of Frenchmen bled and died trying to keep their hold on that part of French soil.

Sometimes it's better to acknowledge the need to be exclusive. It does not not have to be an affront to German people if Frenchmen prefer to seek a way of commemorating their particular ordeal. Of all places, Verdun is surely the national focal point for this.

Phil (PJA)

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Hi,

Food for thought... but that does raise two questions... Over the last few years I think I have read about cleaning up / Kumbaya events with mixed German/French soldiers doing things at Verdun... It would defeat the objective if then a barrier suddenly appeared...

And although Verdun was more of a stalemate....if the British felt the need to be exclusive and mourn their losses, keeping the ex opponents who soundly whipped them out of sacred places... how would the springboks ever play Rugby in a UK stadium again ???... Just saying..... :-)

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Why must a solemn commemoration of a national ordeal be seen as a barrier ?

The French people are as justly proud of their test at Verdun as the Russians are of theirs at Stalingrad.

When I visit Thiepval's Memorial to the Missing, or the Menin Gate, I reflect on the British Commonwealth and the effort that was made by Britons all over the world. I like to think that it will stay that way.

That doesn't mean that I don't consider the ordeal of Germans in that conflict. I get moved by their cemeteries too, especially the one with the statue of the grieving parents. But I would consider it a gross transgression if other people insisted that they should install plaques to British dead around the base of that memorial. Heck, they might be willing to do just that....it is, after all, a poignant testimony to universal grief.

But it's for the Germans to decide.

If the French people want to keep a distinctly national emphasis on their remembrance of Verdun, than I reckon it behoves others to respect that wish, and, what's more, to honour it.

Phil (PJA)

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This whole controversy, in my opinion, is much ado about nothing. Does anyone dispute German war dead are buried there? By their very presence, the German war dead at the Ossuary are already being honored. Unless the French propose testing all the remains and separating the German dead from the French, adding a plaque will change nothing about the reality of the situation.

We have a similar conundrum here in New York City at the Ground Zero memorial. All the unidentified remains are all to be stored together in a revered spot in the memorial, but undoubtedly some of the remains contained therein are those of the hijackers who committed the atrocity. In this case, no one is proposing a plaque to 'honor' them of course (at least not yet) but it does not change the reality of the situation.

-Daniel

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If the French people want to keep a distinctly national emphasis on their remembrance of Verdun, than I reckon it behoves others to respect that wish, and, what's more, to honour it.

Phil (PJA)

Indeed... but for me the stumbling block remains the fact that in the Ossuary the bones are mixed. Its a bit like allowing the unwanted kid to your birthday party, but not allowing him to have cake.

My viewpoint may be biased, My family was on both sides of the Boer war, I served in the French army and I live in Germany... so I suppose i consider myself neutral... I just think at some stage you have to reboot the system and clear the Caches....

best

Chris

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The reality of the situation is one thing. How people choose to commemorate is another.

Many of us will welcome the inclusion of a German plaque in the Ossuary ; it gives the " Kumbuya" feel, so important to many.

If a significant proportion of French people object to it , then I, for one, would be loathe to ignore them.

Phil (PJA)

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The reality of the situation is one thing. How people choose to commemorate is another.

Many of us will welcome the inclusion of a German plaque in the Ossuary ; it gives the " Kumbuya" feel, so important to many.

If a significant proportion of French people object to it , then I, for one, would be loathe to ignore them.

Phil (PJA)

I hear you. We'll see how this plays out, and should the voice of the majority (if in fact it is a majority) win out, and no plaque be set, then so be it. If the plaque gets placed, against the will of the people, we'll see what happens. Perhaps it will be spirited away when no one is watching, or perhaps folks will learn to not look at it. Or, perhaps it will for a few people, give them a reason to critically think about their own beliefs and perhaps adjust them a bit.

-Daniel

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I hear you. We'll see how this plays out, and should the voice of the majority (if in fact it is a majority) win out, and no plaque be set, then so be it. If the plaque gets placed, against the will of the people, we'll see what happens. Perhaps it will be spirited away when no one is watching, or perhaps folks will learn to not look at it. Or, perhaps it will for a few people, give them a reason to critically think about their own beliefs and perhaps adjust them a bit.

-Daniel

The sad fact is... if it has any scrap value... it has 50/50 chances at Verdun.

I guess the best way to view it is that whatever our own personal opinions car, its hardly going to influence whatever the French do... ;-)

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I guess the best way to view it is that whatever our own personal opinions car, its hardly going to influence whatever the French do... ;-)

:thumbsup:

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This has been such an interesting discussion.

What bothers me is the lack of information about the history of the Ossuary.. there was international subscription involved : did the Germans contribute ? The Bishop of Verdun ....did he allude to the role of the building in containing German dead ?

Things were underway in the decade prior to its official opening in 1932.

In my volumes of Churchill's history of The Great War, there is a photograph of the building and the cemetery in front, which WCS described as a memorial to 40,000 Frenchmen who had been killed there. This was, I suspect, quite a long time before inauguration in 1932. Note the allusion to " forty thousand" and " Frenchmen".. nothing about 130,000 mentioned. Presumably the forty thousand included the fifteen thousand in the cemetery, which implies a relatively small golgotha in the building at the time. All French, though, apparently. Maybe Churchill got this all wrong.

I write this without looking at the photograph or its caption , or the date of publication.

More to come, I hope.

Phil (PJA)

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