Ossuary at Verdun

[ph0ebus]

Well, Just a quick stroll through Google Books from back then reveals the following commentary about the spirit of the Ossuary:

"An immense ossuary intended for all the unidentified bodies is to be erected in the vicinity of the cathedral" (my emphasis in italics added, printed in 1920)

From:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lhbZAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA112&dq=verdun+ossuary&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GyfpUvDpGIy_sQTgy4DIAw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=verdun%20ossuary&f=false

"A great project has been set on foot for the erection of an Ossuary in honor of the Unidentified Dead at Verdun. The Ossuary was to serve as a memorial monument and a chapel at the same time, and had been made possible by the gifts and influence of an American Catholic organization, the Knights of Columbus." (my emphasis in italics added, printed in 1922)

From:

http://books.google.com/books?id=pdEqAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA228&dq=verdun+ossuary&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GyfpUvDpGIy_sQTgy4DIAw&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=verdun%20ossuary&f=false

-Daniel

From

[Chris Boonzaier]

When I am at Verdun, I like to visit "My Guys"... either where they are buried, or where they fought.

This article needs a big overhaul... but scroll down to the photo inside the Ossuary... and see where his name is on the wall... I was very suprised to see it so prominantly featured... also included is a donation certificate.

http://www.kaiserscross.com/40056/40625.html

(P.S. I had permission to take some photos inside)

[Christina Holstein]

It isn't a plaque, it's a stone with a name just like all the others and it's already engraved and in place. The name and the regiment have been coloured and it may be finished by now . I haven't had news of any more protests but that doesn't mean there's haven't been any. It will be interesting to see who attends the unveiling on 9th February.

As far as I know, Mgr Ginisty did not ask German cities for contributions. I have no idea how many cities or countries regarded it as a French memorial rather than a common memorial but I would guess most of them believed that it was the former. I have an old postcard of the Ossuary which was sold to encourage people to contribute to the Ossuary and describes the building in the following way: La ligne droite du Monument voulue par les Architectes ...symbolise la Digue que les héroiques Défensueurs de Verdun ont opposée avec leurs poitrines à l'Avance de l'ennemi". That doesn't sound like a common memorial.

I think there's a distinction to be made between a burial and just putting scattered bones in a chamber. I suspect the people who are objecting the name of a German soldier being added to a stone in the Ossuary don't mind scattered bones being collected up but don't want German soldiers to be honoured in what they regard as a French memorial.

You may be right about a feeling of national insecurity today, Phil. I think generally people believe that reconciliation is a good thing but they don't want it forced on them. There was a lot of resentment about putting the German flag on top of Fort Douaumont and it's been torn down several times since then. The European flag that was put there has also been torn down. If people feel that their feelings aren't being taken into account, they'll find ways to protest. If they think it's pushed by politicians or the media, they'll object.

Christina

[ph0ebus]

It isn't a plaque, it's a stone with a name just like all the others and it's already engraved and in place. The name and the regiment have been coloured and it may be finished by now . I haven't had news of any more protests but that doesn't mean there's haven't been any. It will be interesting to see who attends the unveiling on 9th February.

As far as I know, Mgr Ginisty did not ask German cities for contributions. I have no idea how many cities or countries regarded it as a French memorial rather than a common memorial but I would guess most of them believed that it was the former. I have an old postcard of the Ossuary which was sold to encourage people to contribute to the Ossuary and describes the building in the following way: La ligne droite du Monument voulue par les Architectes ...symbolise la Digue que les héroiques Défensueurs de Verdun ont opposée avec leurs poitrines à l'Avance de l'ennemi". That doesn't sound like a common memorial.

I think there's a distinction to be made between a burial and just putting scattered bones in a chamber. I suspect the people who are objecting the name of a German soldier being added to a stone in the Ossuary don't mind scattered bones being collected up but don't want German soldiers to be honoured in what they regard as a French memorial.

You may be right about a feeling of national insecurity today, Phil. I think generally people believe that reconciliation is a good thing but they don't want it forced on them. There was a lot of resentment about putting the German flag on top of Fort Douaumont and it's been torn down several times since then. The European flag that was put there has also been torn down. If people feel that their feelings aren't being taken into account, they'll find ways to protest. If they think it's pushed by politicians or the media, they'll object.

Christina

I am a newcomer to this topic, but I am beginning to wonder if the Ossuary was being marketed to the French people as one thing (i.e., for the French only) and marketed to the rest of the world as something broader? The things I have been reading seem to suggest that.

[nigelcave]

Maybe so, but the bishop was quite clear in his intentions. ND deL is, I think, a different matter, altho' some of the same principles apply. The Bp of Arras is buried in the basilica at ND de L; whereas the Bp of Verdun is, but - IIRC - his body was allowed to reduce to bones and then he was put in with the rest (not sure which 'segment'. That is as I understand it and I cannot for the life of me remember where I got the information - it might have been in that rather good Verdun Tour Guide (with a rather naff blue and yellow cover - and the Lord only knows where my copy might be).

The French state was ambivalent, I think, about war cemeteries. As recently as 1998, when I tackled the then minister for veterans' affairs (in many ways a very remarkable man - he had just given an excellent speech at the Vimy commemoration that year, which included mention of the whole of the 'British' effort at Battle of Arras 1917). I tackled him on the subject of the state of some of the national cemeteries I had visited recently, particularly on the Aisne and the Marne, where in several the grass was higher than the crosses (well, OK, almost as high as). In fact in at least one case it seems as though the cemetery had been grubbed up (one hopes that the graves were transferred). His response was that every sou (sic) he had in his budget he targeted on living veterans. Fair enough, I suppose, but ...

[Christina Holstein]

Mgr Ginisty is buried in the Ossuary Chapel. He's on one side of the aisle, with the first priest on the other side.

[Fattyowls]

I've been trying to put into words just how different the Ossuary is from anywhere else on any battlefield I know; I think many of the contributions here have brought this out and made it relevant to the discussion. I have failed to find the words but I have found a picture. The desolation at least 15 years after the end of the battle is one of the many staggering things about it.

[egbert]

Old soldiers never die; but nationalistic people filled with feelings of hatred

mercifully will fade away . . .

I have followed this thread with great interest. I recognize some few British nationalists here that have no understanding of what is going on with the German-French friendship, their common grief, their common remembrance, their common military and civil memorial services on French soil, their overwhelming reconciliation over the bones and graves of our nations' war dead. Some British nationals simply do not understand that we, the Germans and French think so much different than those separated from the rest of Europe. Yes we have not seen German-British commemorations where at one place, let's say at Lochnagar Crater, German-British government officials with militaries from both sides honor both dead who undoubtedly lie there together in the foreign soil. We do not need to do that when you think the time is not or will never be ripe. But you simply have to accept the fact that Germany and France have overcome prejudice and reservations.

And you have to accept the fact that the German-French reconciliation is pure, honest and truthfully.

Today it is such a normality when German-French troops commemorate together on the grounds of the ossuaire or in front and on top of Ft. Douaumont. If you google French or German google you find tons of videos and pictures from these official, military and or government sponsored celebrations in Verdun. Verdun has a very special significance for Germany and France. Both live now in a common house and celebrate at any occasion the German-French reconciliation. The British cannot do this because their feeling and thinking is so much different. We, Germany and France are direct neighbors and are more pragmatic to overcome the dark sides of history and do not hold today's generation hostage.

For British nationalists it is probably beyond comprehension to understand that we have a fully integrated German-French Brigade, that serves together under changing French and German leadership. The brigade that will be employed in the very near future to central Africa for combat duties is the same that performs the solemn ceremonies in Verdun under both national flags since many years.

In my service time I served together with hundreds of French soldiers/officers/generals who think absolutely the same: we are true friends and such ceremonies in Verdun mean a lot to us. No prejudices except from the always present, for God sake few, filled with hatred.

The discussed memorial plaque is not the first plaque commemorating a German soldier of the about 70.000 that are estimated and put to rest in the ossuaire. In the years before there were some more unveiled. You might find them when next time visiting the ossuaire. So no big fuss that the German flag and the French flag fly peacefully together on top of the nearby Douaumont, as the Douaumont is an official German military cemetery with 679 Germans killed in action all lying still deep inside the fortress .

I cannot accept bashing on Verdun German -French remembrance issues from British reactionaries, I would only accept that from the French side.

Hope that is more food for thoughts (except of course for the die hard reactionaries, who will mercifully fade away, s.a.)

[phil andrade]

You take a very dim view of British perceptions, egbert.

You say that Germans and Frenchmen are more pragmatic in overcoming the dark sides of history.

1870, 1914 and 1940 stand as evidence that you might be wrong.

Perhaps, after three such events, you might reconsider your statement.

Phil (PJA)

[Christina Holstein]

The flags don't fly peacefully together on Ft Document, Egbert. The German flag has been pulled down 3 times and the European one twice. Much of what you say about Franco-German reconciliation concerns official France. No one has asked ordinary French people what they think about it. On an individual level many would say that it is all a long time ago and we should move on but even they make a distinction between moving on and forgetting. What you say about the common European home is the official view. I lived in Europe for 36 yrs, most of it in Luxembourg which has a huge floating expat population and I can tell you from personal experience that politicians can say what they like about reconciliation and how we are all brothers now but memories are long and that while ordinary people - not journalists or media types or politicians or so-called intellectuals and particularly not anyone who works for the EU - accept that 100 years have passed , they do not believe it right to forget. It may be that this is more prevalent in the Verdun area than elsewhere but I think it should be respected.

You will have to tell me where the existing individual German stones are. I recall one from a military or Freundschaft (I think) association but no individual name and the Ossuary authorities are saying this is the first.

Christina

[andalucia]

As my family are Irish and Swedish, I think I shall now start complaining to the government about how they were treated over the last few hundred years. Lets not forget the past, lets drag everything up and forgive nothing. This could lead to war. I may go as far as only speaking to people from my own city.

Only joking, I love you all.

[Guest exuser1]

Have lived in France for some time now and been visiting for nearly 50 years ,and spend many happy hours wandering around militria fairs here and in respect to some of the comments above ,then if the locals are so annoyed with the Germans why is 90% of the stuff for sale Great War German or WW2 German ,and in newsagents tabacs ,most of the military history magazines have a bloke with a pointy helmet on the front of looking uber cool in SS spotty camo or rather natty in all black with silver trimmings, have wanderd to the counter on more than a few occasions thinking opps whats the little old lady going to say when she sees me with this months Militria Mag whose main articles seem to be on the nitty gritty of some obscure German unit ,but no one bats an eye lid .The nasty bosch shot 14 civvys in my villege in 1944 so when asked to help with a VE Day expo out came all me British and yank WW2 kit , looked very good ,and the local collectors what did they display ? Luftwaffe kit , panzer uniforms and Kriegsmarine for costal defence , well this March they are doing the Great War so be intresting to see what they display this time .

[egbert]

Christina, I work together with French since 40 years, am in vacation twice a year in France, researching with my French friends the HWK several weeks a year, week long workshops with my French military colleagues, please do not tell me I do not know the French -I do, maybe better than......

The tear down of the permanent peaceful flying flags by nationalists is neglectable over the long term they are flying, or should I say the tear down falls in the same scum category like the occasional desecration of British, German and French war grave cemeteries. The French do not hate the British only because some morbid idiots desecrate 2 or so British war grave cemeteries per year in France.

Please do not educate me about German-French friendship which I know since my youth camp exchanges. I have expressed everything necessary in my lengthy post, I do not want to repeat myself. If you have another perception, ok. But my petitum was and will be to praise the German-French reconciliation and I have expressed it here vividly I think. It shall serve no more than as one opinion outside of the British point of view/community.

.

P.S. I believe it is from M.Klauers site , I mean the plaque issue. You know how to google for it in French or German language sites I guess. Also here , excerpt from an excursion with Prof Krumeich

„Wir haben uns versöhnt. Wir haben uns verständigt. Wir sind Freunde geworden.“ François Mitterrand und Helmut Kohl

[phil andrade]

not the first plaque commemorating a German soldier of the about 70.000 that are estimated and put to rest in the ossuaire. /quote]

That figure of seventy thousand.....that implies that the majority of bones in the ossuary are German.

Is that estimate an authoritative one ? Is it plausible ?

Or is it a follow on from your exquisite comment that the only statistics you trust are those you falsify yourself ?

Phil (PJA)

[egbert]

not the first plaque commemorating a German soldier of the about 70.000 that are estimated and put to rest in the ossuaire. /quote]

That figure of seventy thousand.....that implies that the majority of bones in the ossuary are German.

Is that estimate an authoritative one ? Is it plausible ?

Or is it a follow on from your exquisite comment that the only statistics you trust are those you falsify yourself ?

Phil (PJA)

Phil, your irony intrigues me.

I have heard the number -and was electrified because the number was in question here in this thread- when I listened/watched to this historian discussion last week. The number was mentioned by either Prof Neitzel or Prof Krumeich.

[Sly]

Hi,

As a Frenchman I am still following this thread with interest, the Franco-German relationship has been a very long process going through very dark events to a sunny sky with very little clouds today. It is obvious that the construction of Europe has been very successfull for Germans and French: the European identity, mainly based on the strong Franco-German relationship, is a reality nowadays and I understand that this concept can be different for a British. In France the wars are part of the past, and we are in a "move on" process more than a pure remembrance process. We are also living with all these constant reminders of the wars here, it's part of our life and I think it's different for someone who is living in another country where there are no direct visible scars. I am not saying that we (French) want to forget all the wars, but a part of our mind probably wants to. We have to move on. The discussions about the hundred years anniversary are a good example of that dilemna. I agree with most of Egbert post, which I think resume very well the general feeling in France and all the work that we have done with our german friends.

"Paix aux hommes de bonne volonté"

Sly

[andalucia]

Good post Sly, very interesting.

I can not speak for anyone else, but for me the war is in the past, and my remembrance for those from all sides is equal.

[Christina Holstein]

Sly, you express beautifully the official view of friendship between France and Germany but I would still say that in the area I know best - the whole Franco-Belgian border area stretching from Luxembourg to Sedan and down through the Argonne to Verdun and out to Metz - I have met over 30 years plenty of French people for whom the theory may be good but the practice is different. I have no idea who pulled the flags from the top of Ft Douaumont but it was the local Anciens Combattants in

the area who objected so strongly to it, backed by the Mayor of Verdun. Clearly there are some people in the area who have not read the memo on reconciliation and new identity. After a brilliant German re-enactment group appeared with various other German and French re-enactors at the memorial walk from Azannes to Col

Driant's CP about 4 years ago, an order went out from the Prefect, no less, that they should not come back. I was on the walk.

Clearly strong feelings still exist in the area. I don't think that's very surprising. As I say, it will be interesting to see what happens on 9 Feb and whether more stones are engraved.

Christina

[Chris Boonzaier]

I have no idea who pulled the flags from the top of Ft Douaumont but it was the local Anciens Combattants in the area who objected so strongly to it, backed by the Mayor of Verdun.

Christina

Indeed... but it takes 1 drunken Tourist/Local to pull down a flag, it is hardly a political statement, and IMHO not enough to influence a descision? I did some silly things as a teenager... hope to god I did not influence national policy in any way! :-)

But seriously, Vandalism and Verdun go hand in hand... a couple of years ago Vandals damaged the Muslim monument, Stole the copper of the bayonet Trench roof etc. etc...

I think If you go to any pub, andwhere in the world and you tossed in the question "Waht do you think of the French/Germans/Brits/Americans/Chinese/XXXs"... you are going to get a taker in the Grumbling department.

I dont have 50 years in France, but have put my time in... and i think one of the things it is very easy to do there is rouse a group of people for a cause... I remember ages ago protests against Euro Disney, an attack on culture!

It is up to the Govt to decide what is "Right" and what is just a bunch of people grumbling.... As i said before, we can just respect each others views as being an interesting opposing view... we are not a town council and our vote will probably not be counted... ;-)

[Sly]

Christina,

I don't doubt than in a region like Verdun, which symbolises so much the fighting and the darkest hours between France and Germany (like Oradour-sur-Glane or Drancy) a strong feeling still exist for some people , certainly more than in other regions of France but that feeling has disappeared in most of the population in France.

Sly

[phil andrade]

Phil, your irony intrigues me.

So long as it intrigues you, egbert, and doesn't offend you !

Your heartfelt testimony to reconciliation wins my respect.

Talking of irony.....if it transpires that, of the one hundred and thirty thousand dead in the Ossuary, seventy thousand are German - and this in the greatest symbol of French national sacrifice anywhere in the world - now THAT WOULD be ironic.

I tried your link, egbert, but don't have the German. Please, if you have the time and inclination, would you tell me what those professors actually said when they alluded to the seventy thousand ?

It still seems hard to countenance that French authorities were fully reconciled to using their principal national ossuary as a receptacle for so many German dead. Making a virtue of necessity is one thing, but this looks too incongruous. If the German government was invited to participate in its construction and furnished money towards it, then it would be more feasible. I search in vain for a detailed history about its construction and the comments from those who were involved at the time.

Phil (PJA)

[Christina Holstein]

Sly, you may be right in what you say although having regard to human nature I remain to be convinced. However, it's Verdun we're discussing here. The objections I referred to a couple of days ago were sent to the executive board of the Ossuary which has received many such. I will try to find out if they all come from the Verdun area or whether some also come from other parts of France.

Christina

[phil andrade]

You mention the " executive board" of the Ossuary, Christina.

Might it be that we could contact them to gain more information about the history of the building ?

I would like to find out whether I have been terribly mistaken in my assumptions.

Phil (PJA)

[egbert]

Phil, your irony intrigues me.

So long as it intrigues you, egbert, and doesn't offend you !

Your heartfelt testimony to reconciliation wins my respect.

I tried your link, egbert, but don't have the German. Please, if you have the time and inclination, would you tell me what those professors actually said when they alluded to the seventy thousand ?

Phil (PJA)

Phil, the discussion lasts for 105 minutes. You owe me 86 minutes of my time. It has been stated by Prof Dr Krumeich in minute 86 that about 70.000 Germans are put to rest within the ossuaire.

[phil andrade]

Many thanks, egbert.

Now I venture the question : is he guessing, or does he know ?

Is the wish father to the thought ?

I'm trying to imagine how the Bishop of Verdun felt about his domaine in the 1920s, and wonder how far his sentiments reflected those of Frenchmen in general.

First and foremost, he has a revolting task to deal with. He also has to uphold French honour and - perhaps - this implies some form of discrimination ( or should it be priority ?) in the recovery and interment of remains.

Are the Germans interested, or consulted ? Surely they're interested, but the straitened circumstances of defeat do not allow them much scope for remonstration.

Perhaps in the initial years there is a lot of discrimination and prioritising when it comes to interment, that gives way to a more generous remit later on.

How far are the dead intermingled on the battlefield itself ?

The observance of different sectors of the battlefield within the Ossuary testify to care being taken about provenance. Surely some of these sectors remained in French hands, although others, like Fleury, were changing again and again.

We know that the British achieved a remarkable degree of success in identifying nationality of their bodies, even on the Somme and at Passchendaele. Was this not possible at Verdun ?

Phil (PJA)