P1888 bayonets

[trajan]

There is a P1888 marked to '3.D.R.A.G.', '(no) 3 Depot (Heavy and Siege guns), Royal Garrison Artilley at Plymouth', currently on GBF - https://www.gunboards.com/threads/1888-mkii-lee-enfield-bayonet-unit-mark.1194230/#post-10751004

 

Julian

[Terrylee]

South African manufactured Pat. 1888 bayonets.

[Sarchet]

P1888 manufactured in 1903 and marked to 3rd Battalion, York and Lancaster Regiment.

[trajan]

Another nice example of a 'Been there, seen that' P.1888 with nice ricasso 'inspection' markings to sort out!

Julian 

[Dave66]

It is a Mk 1 type 2, so would been manufactured well before 1903….the 03 you see on the Ricasso is one of the numerous inspection stamps, unfortunately hard to see some of the earlier stamps and original manufacture date in that photo but would have been made during the 1890’s.

Nice piece Sarchet….thanks for posting it.

Dave.

 

[Sarchet]

9 hours ago, trajan said:

Another nice example of a 'Been there, seen that' P.1888 with nice ricasso 'inspection' markings to sort out!

Julian 

Thanks! My understanding is that 3rd Battalion remained in England as a training unit for the duration, so this one is unlikely to have seen action.

8 hours ago, Dave66 said:

It is a Mk 1 type 2, so would been manufactured well before 1903….the 03 you see on the Ricasso is one of the numerous inspection stamps, unfortunately hard to see some of the earlier stamps and original manufacture date in that photo but would have been made during the 1890’s.

Nice piece Sarchet….thanks for posting it.

Dave.

 

Thank you! I thought it was a MkI 2nd Type but the '03 was throwing me off. The manufacturer is not really visible either; I'll try a soapstone rub and see if it brings out the original year. It has definitely seen some abuse; the ring was slightly deformed and the end of the T-slot peened over so that it would not fit on a rifle, which I carefully corrected, and there was a lot of active rust I cleaned off with oil and brass wool being unable to boil it due to the riveted grips. 

[cheeseman64]

I’ve been reading through this thread for some time now as I’ve been looking at the two P1888s that I have. It started to answer a number of my questions but the more I dug in, the more confusing some things became. I definitely feel like it’s going down a rabbit hole getting into trying to identify everything. I’m also starting to think I’m seeing markings where they don’t exist – when I start interpreting pitting I think it’s time to take a break.

Most of the markings I have figured out but do have a few specific questions, and some observations. I welcome any clarification or comments. I’ll split into two posts with the number of photos. The first one is a Wilkinson, and didn’t have a scabbard when I got it, though I’ve been keeping an eye out for one.

There is a name carved in the grips, though not fully legible: looks like it could be CHASTIN, GHASTIN or HASTIN – I don’t think there is another letter on the end.

There are odd mesh looking marks on both sides of the cross guard and both opposing sides of the pommel that made me wonder if it was placed in some form of vise and tightened so much that it left impressions. Not sure if that’s likely but they are clear one each side in the photos.

This is the second one, and was with this scabbard when I got it. No maker named on the ricasso. I have a few questions on the markings on this one.

 

1.     The scabbard does have an inspection mark (looks like Enfield) and also what appears to be a ‘W  D’ mark just above the inspection mark. Can quite make out if there is a broad arrow in between the letters.

2.     The stamp on the locket of the scabbard is a crown over ‘H’ but I haven’t found reference to that maker. Any suggestions on that?

3.     The markings on the tang of the top P1888 includes what looks like ‘13’ over an ‘M’ (don’t see a crown above the number in mine). I’ve seen a few different references to that ‘M’ but not sure if there’s any firm opinions on it?

4.     Also on the tang are two symbols/letters close to the cross guard – look similar to a ‘J’ and ‘T’ but more stylised. Is there a particular meaning to these?

[Dave66]

Nice to see a couple of new examples, 

The first one I would certainly agree that it has been clamped hard enough in a vice to leave an impressionc crossguard and pommel, but unusual to see the crossguard numbered so that may be an indication of colonial/foreign service….fascinating inscription😀.

With regards the second one, Enfield made, i think the “M” stamp may be mole, so possible they may have been regripped there.

 

Dave.

[Dave66]

The P1888 Mk1 type 2 in the link below is fairly bog standard, but the naval scabbard with internal chape and chequered frog stud is something of a rarity….nice combination, but sadly not within my meagre budget😢.

https://www.jdrmilitaria.co.uk/product/rare-pattern-1888-lee-metford-naval-marked-with-naval-mk1-chequered-frog-stud/

Dave.

 

[cheeseman64]

I picked up another this past weekend on a trip to Niagara Falls - a bit better price at $110 (Cdn). Looks like it may have been a Peel Regiment issue here in Ontario.

[trajan]

A nice find - and cheap with the scabbard!!!!

IIRC, wasn't there a book or booklet published some years back on Canadian unit markings?

Julian 

[BORSETTI]

Good evening, everyone, here is my new 1888 pattern

[JMB1943]

Borsetti,

The bayonet & scabbard are both in very good condition.

Issued to the 4th Battalion of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, a very famous regiment; possibly the "M" stamp indicates militia??

I think that I can see the broad arrow on the scabbard, plus other markings that I cannot decipher.

Altogether, a very nice pairing!

regards,

JMB

[BORSETTI]

Yes the 3rd and 4rd Argyll battalion came from the militia and they participed in the second boer war then in reserve during the first world war.

[BORSETTI]

JMB1943, on the scabbard there is the number 95

[Dave66]

Very nice Borsetti,

Love these old militia markings, great find.

Dave.

 

[BORSETTI]

Thank you very much for your comments

[trajan]

I guess this stamp originally read simply 'M/A&SH', then the '4' added when it was called up as a regular unit. ???

Julian

[BORSETTI]

May be but I believe there have been only two militia battalions on the 3rd and the 4rd, if anyone has details it will be the goods come.

[4thGordons]

Are we certain the M stands for Militia ? My immediate, but quite possibly incorrect,  reaction would have been (in the context of the Boer War) M= MOUNTED (as in "mounted" infantry)?

I thought the standard home service volunteer units pre 1908 Cardwell reforms (from the 1860s?) were the Volunteer Battalions (VB) rather than Militia?

My knowledge of this area is partial -- but in terms of service in the Boer War the Gordons Volunteers at least provided two "Service Companies" 

1st Service Company was made up of men from the 1st, 2nd and 4th Volunteer Battalions Gordon Highlanders

2nd Service Company was made up of men from 5th and 6th Volunteer Battalions Gordon Highlanders plus the London Scottish.

Here are two of mine

an 08 1902 EFD marked to the 1st Vol Bn Gordons (right)

an 09 1897 Sanderson with a 1915 reissue date marked to the 4th Gordons (left)

Chris

 

[shippingsteel]

Yes Chris, the letter M over the top of the Regimental unit mark stands for Militia. Other prefix letters in use during that turn of the century period were V for Volunteer and Y for Yeomanry.

Cheers, SS

[4thGordons]

13 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

Yes Chris, the letter M over the top of the Regimental unit mark stands for Militia. Other prefix letters in use during that turn of the century period were V for Volunteer and Y for Yeomanry.

Cheers, SS

Thanks -- so I assume Militia and Volunteer units coexisted pre 1908? I was under the impression that Militia (M) gave way to Volunteer Battalions (VB) which were then replaced by Territorial Force (TF) Battalions post Cardwell (1908) .

Chris

 

Edit: and can we also add R for Reserve to the list?

 

Edited 29 November , 2021 by 4thGordons

[trajan]

Instructions for Armourers has the following abbreviations concerning the above posts:

1897 - gives various examples of 'Militia' markings, all with the letter 'M' over the appropriate unit abbreviation. This is followed by examples of markings for 'Yeomanry Cavalry', with the letter 'Y' over the appropriate unit abbreviation, and then examples of markings for 'Volunteers', with 'V' over the appropriate unit abbreviation.  

1904 - givs the same except that instead of the heading 'Yeomanry cavalry', it gives 'Imperial Yeomanry'.

Juliuan

 

[Dave66]

I assume that this saw no service after 1908, as the old militia argyle stamping wasn’t cancelled and the bayonet re-issued to a new unit. Wiki has a great list of the old volunteer units and what they became in 1908….but I can’t seem to find a militia equivalent.

Dave.

 

Edited 29 November , 2021 by Dave66

[shippingsteel]

7 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Thanks -- so I assume Militia and Volunteer units coexisted pre 1908? I was under the impression that Militia (M) gave way to Volunteer Battalions (VB) which were then replaced by Territorial Force (TF) Battalions post Cardwell (1908) 

Yes Chris the Militia and Volunteer Battalions operated concurrently. After the 1908 reforms the Militia became the Special Reserve while the Volunteers became Territorial Battalions.

At the time this particular P1888 bayonet was stamped with regimental marking the 4th A&SH was indeed a Militia Battalion. And yes you can also add the R for Reserve to the list but perhaps a little later in the timeline. 

Cheers, SS