WW1 Grenades both British and Enemy.

[calibre792x57.y]

Wainfleet. - Couple of nice looking Mills: re the quality of the painting it is interesting to see the variation in band positioning in these bombs. - SW

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Here are examples of surviving red and pink paint. These are two different grenades, a 5 and a 23.

Wainfleet,

2 nice examples of the original paint, and after looking again at my grenades, I can see traces of the original red ' Live Grenade ' paint marking particularly in the low points on the grenade body.

Regards,

LF

[wainfleet]

I no longer have the 23; IIRC it now resides with forum pal Michael Haselgrove.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Wainfleet. - Couple of nice looking Mills: re the quality of the painting it is interesting to see the variation in band positioning in these bombs. - SW

With the pressure at the factories for wartime production of the grenades, and the often unskilled labour being used, the coloured paint was probably applied somewhat haphazardly with each worker having their own preference as to the precise positioning of the painted band.

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

Rick Landers the author of the excellent grenade reference book ' Grenade - British and Commonwealth Hand and Rifle Grenades ', has just returned from a holiday, and kindly replied to the question I asked regarding the white banded Dummy Mills No.5 Mk.I grenade which appears on page 41 of his book. Apparently, the grenade in question, comes from the Collection of Norman Bonney who is also extremely knowledgeable on grenades.

In his reply, Rick Landers shares my opinion that although the regulations called for the black stencilled word ' Practice ' to be painted over the white on Dummy/Practice Grenades, under Field conditions, the use of the stencil was not always practical, hence Dummy/Practice grenades exist with just the expediently painted white band.

Here is Rick Landers' reply :-

" The grenade shown on page 41 of my book is certainly different to the official description of the Grenade, hand, practice, No. 5, Mk I given in LoC 18689 however the grenade comes from Norman Bonney’s collection and I would assume that it was converted to a dummy in the field and the white band was easier to add than the stencilled lettering. I can find no LoC or other official reference to the use of a white band however later Mills grenades were completely painted white to indicate a dummy. As Darryl ( Darryl Lynn ) points out on page 17 of his book dummy grenades were painted a variety of colours and ” there are simply too many to detail in this book”.

This grenade is simply an example of the many undocumented variations of the Mills grenade which make it such an interesting item to collect and study. I have no doubt that it is a genuine WWI variation. "

Regards,

Rick

There you go LF. I was right. There is no official specification for the white band. A one off painted example (if it was white) does not prove any rule at all, nor is it a variant, beyond being a one off.

The simplest explanation to accept is that my friend was right all along. Bands that appear whitish or cream were once PINK. I think we all have to accept that any grenade with good paint is probably a repaint. The original grenades were only expected to last 6 months and the paint was not applied for its staying power. Most has fallen off over the years and only a ghost of paint of found on dug up versions if any.

There is no evidence that grenades were converted in the field and given 'expediently painted white bands'. Soldier's in the field had ALREADY been trained with grenades, either on home soil or in the reserve areas. Again the white band theory fits no facts or documented history.

The spring clip in your no 5 was a late WW1 change mainly adopted by Belgium in their No 36's. It's certainly not the right pin for a 1915 M&C Co No 5.

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

John,

As I said before, this Forum is the perfect place for members with differing opinions and theories, to express those individual opinions and theories.

Rick Landers' opinion on the white banded Dummy grenade shown in his book is completely different to your's, and so far, you appear to be the lone voice not accepting that white banded WW1 Mills Dummy grenades exist.

Other Forum members own such grenades, and Rick Landers confirms that Norman Bonney also has such a genuine white banded grenade in his collection.

Also, I just heard back for Darryl Lynn the author of the grenade reference book ' The Grenade Recognition Manual ' confirming that he just recently purchased such a white banded grenade for his collection, which he considers to be completely genuine, here is his email to me :-

" Actually I just got one that has the remnants of a single white band around the body just above centre. I can see no other indications of any other paint, just the apparently white band. It is possible that it is a faded pink band, but with no other remaining paint such as the red paint indicating a filled grenade, that is not likely. I am fairly certain its a white banded Dummy grenade. It is not stencilled with Practice though. A bit of a mystery, but for my part, I am satisfied."

Cheers

Darryl

Nobody, including yourself, can be 100% certain that no Mills Dummy/Practice grenades were painted with a single white band, as the evidence clearly points to the contrary, and we all know that time after time we see WW1 regulations being ignored or varied, as I am sure happened with the Mills grenade stencil requirement.

I am sure we all respect your view, and in return you must respect the views of those, including many experts, who hold a differing view to your's.

For my part, I am going to disagree with you, and go with the views of the experts, and the other physical evidence.

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

LF

All I can add is that if you think trying to prove a rule by looking at exceptions is historic research, then you are in fairyland. In military hardware research you have to trace things back to specifications issued by armed forces. That's how things are done now as in the 20th century. You are trying to prove that something existed when at no time has any researcher or author come up with proof that it exists. That in research terms is not good enough. The alternative that colours change over time is far more realistic and credible.

If Darryl states ' It's a bit of a mystery', then you should acknowledge that neither he nor you can prove your theory. My theory, however, supported by the complete absence of a military specification is sound. My friend's expertise (and he has worked with Norman Bonney) proposes that paint changes colour over time. My brief research into zinc oxide and vermillion supports that.

All in all, my position will stand scrutiny, others won't. You can argue till the cows come home of exceptions, field modifications, one offs but in the end you have nothing, except some grenades that were pink banded and are now cream. White bands never existed and you should accept it.

I've been researching the Mills now for nearly ten years. My own notes on the Mills extend to hundreds of pages supported by as much official documentation as I could find in that time. I admit that I have at times followed false leads, half stories and all, but I have learned from that. I have been wrong and bruised in some discussions with people who know more than me. However in this case, I believe I am right and you have produced no evidence to casts doubts on what I have said.

And.. If you are ever near Ashford, I'll gladly buy you a pint.

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

LF

And.. If you are ever near Ashford, I'll gladly buy you a pint.

John

Sharing a pint is a very good note to end on, and I am sure we shall both continue to enjoy this very interesting Thread, and look forward to more great grenade posts and photographs.

Regards,

LF

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The spring clip in your no 5 was a late WW1 change mainly adopted by Belgium in their No 36's.

John

John,

Do you have any reference for or photographs of the ' spring clip ' type Belgian Mills safety pin, I have looked in all my reference books and on line and can find nothing. All the written references and photographs show the Mills grenade being used by the Belgians as having the basic ' split pin ' safety pin normally used on the Mills grenade.

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

The subject of the Mills is far far greater than any of the normal reference books on WW1 Grenades. They just scratch the surface.

Yes, I have got a reference to it somewhere. I'll look it out. The safety type pin was introduced in 1918, but seemingly only adopted by the Belgians regularly. I have a number on 36's obtained in Belgium with this pin. It was a version of the pin introduced in 1918 with certain French Grenades. It was rejected by the British army as being liable to catch other pins when grenades were being carried in a canvas bucket as for trench raids

Here's a photo I have of a 1918 dated 36 in Belgian Training colours (Tan and grey - note how little paint is left) with the pin. The base has a short post welded to it which allows rapid recocking of the lever. The leather bootlace retains the lever to the body. All original.

John

[Gunner Bailey]

The reference was a Trench Warfare Department memo rejecting the pin. Contents as in previous post. John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

John,

Many thanks for the follow up interesting information and photograph. Do you, or anyone else know if the Mills grenades used by the Belgians during WW1 were in fact made in G.B., ?

P.S. John if you still have any of the WW1 Belgian Mills grenades, could you look at their base plugs for any maker's marks, that should answer the question.

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

All the Mills grenades that I have seen or read of used by the Belgians were British made. The one pictured is marked TL (A maker I've not identified yet). All the other are more common makers. For No 5's, the maker Moram & Co (Lewisham) did supply a number of threaded solid brass baseplugs marked No 5 (rather than 23) to the Belgians. I've also got a WW1 Mills detonator tin supplied to the Belgians.

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

A Bomber's exploits - an illustration from War Illustrated, 16th December, 1916 - A British Bomber attacking and destroying a Somme German machine gun position at night.

[Gunner Bailey]

On a lighter note.

John

[calibre792x57.y]

While we are on the subject of Mills base plugs & makers - I have a couple of unidentified makers. First one is a No.5 Mk I - Brass plug dated 1915 and marked S.P. & Co. Ld. W. I thought this may be one of the Parkes at Willenhall, but not certain. The other is a No. 36 dated 10/1917 by 'PT. Co.' The safety lever is also stamped 'P' and the body has 'P' cast into it beneath the lever. Poole Foundry??. Any ideas? - SW

[Lancashire Fusilier]

While we are on the subject of Mills base plugs & makers - I have a couple of unidentified makers. First one is a No.5 Mk I - Brass plug dated 1915 and marked S.P. & Co. Ld. W. I thought this may be one of the Parkes at Willenhall, but not certain.

Sommewalker,

On page 184 of Darryl Lynn's ' Grenade Recognition Manual ' - Grenade Markings - he lists ' S.P. & C Ltd ' as being S. Parks & Co. Ltd.

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

While we are on the subject of Mills base plugs & makers - I have a couple of unidentified makers. First one is a No.5 Mk I - Brass plug dated 1915 and marked S.P. & Co. Ld. W. I thought this may be one of the Parkes at Willenhall, but not certain. The other is a No. 36 dated 10/1917 by 'PT. Co.' The safety lever is also stamped 'P' and the body has 'P' cast into it beneath the lever. Poole Foundry??. Any ideas? - SW

I've got both recorded but unidentified. I'm pretty sure SP&Co is not Parkes. W is more likely Wolverhampton or Woolwich for which examples do exist.

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

On a lighter note.

John

John,

A wonderful cartoon by Capt. Bruce Bairnsfather ( photo attached ) who served with the Royal Warwickshire Regiment in WW1., although he was gassed, he survived the war.

If you and others like his work, here is a free download of his book ' Fragments of France ', which contains many other great cartoons and drawings by him.

Regards,

LF

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/25951/25951-h/25951-h.htm

[calibre792x57.y]

Thanks for the input. I tried Lt. Col. Bonney with much the same result; listed but at present unknown. - SW

[Gunner Bailey]

More Belgium stuff.

WW1 Mills det tin. Cardboard interior and tubes. Two photos.

John

[Gunner Bailey]

The No 23 Mk III dated 7/18. Nickle plated and red painted. Probably for training use. Note safety pin.

John

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The No 23 Mk III dated 7/18. Nickle plated and red painted. Probably for training use. Note safety pin.

John

John,

Great items, and from what you are saying, the Mills grenades and safety pins used by the Belgians were not actually ' Belgian ', they were all in fact British made and shipped to Belgium.

The locking safety pin was British manufactured and intended for use by the British on British Mills grenades, but was rejected, as it may snag on other grenades.

The nickel plated Mills are always interesting, and I have seen such examples given as presentations.

Many thanks for posting.

Regards,

LF

[Gunner Bailey]

Certainly the design was British, as I said copying a French innovation. I'd assume production was in the UK at least until the end of the war.

John

[Gunner Bailey]

LF

What do you think of this one?

Compared to all other No 5's I've got it's about 5 mm narrower and 4 mm shorter in the body.

A relic but a rare one..

John