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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

WW1 Grenades both British and Enemy.


Lancashire Fusilier

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Here are the photographs from the official training manual issued by the General Staff and published in September 1916 - " The Training and Employment of Bombers ".

I have not seen these photographs outside of this manual, and they are interesting both from the grenade aspect and also the kit and uniforms used.

LF

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As still happens today, and I was certainly an offender, and as also happened back in 1915, the terms ' Grenade ' and ' Bomb ' were both used to describe the Mills Grenade, a habit which even then caused confusion, and this prompted an official ruling on terminology in the List of Changes 17873 ( 23 December 1915 ) which gave the following instruction :-

" In future, the designation ' bombs ' and ' grenades ' will be applied to service stores in accordance with the following definition of terms, viz. -

Bombs - All projectiles fired from trench howitzers or dropped from aircraft.

Grenades - All projectiles thrown by hand or by machine having mechanical propellant power, or fired from a rifle.

So in relation to the ' Mills No.5 ' it should never have been referred to as a ' Mills Bomb ', and the List of Changes No. 17572 dated 10 May 1915 officially introduced the Mills No.5 as the ' Grenade, hand, No.5 Mark I. L Iron, oval-shaped '.

I have now edited the title of this Thread to the WW1 Mills Hand Grenade ( not bomb ).

LF

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Would appreciate any comments on this example of a No 23 Mk l or ll (bad strike) dated 8/16 by Elmbank, Glasgow. Dull red paint around the 'neck' (sorry, purists, I'm a novice), yellow/cream covers the same area as on the No 5 in Post 182 - there is figure 2 stamped on this segment - while the rest of the body shows traces of black paint. The base plug has a rod thread.

Thanks.

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John,

Your's is a Mills grenade No.23 designed to take a rod for firing as a rifle grenade. The Elmbank Foundry was established by James Allen in 1836 at 138 Argyle Street, Glasgow, and they remained in business until 1969. Apart from making your grenade, they were also responsible for many important architectural iron work projects throughout Glasgow.

The red paint at the top of your grenade shows that it was originally a live grenade, the other paint band could be either a discoloured ' green ' paint band indicating it was originally filled with Baratol, TNT., Trotyl or Amatol. The only colour usually seen would have been a pink paint band for an Ammonal or Alumatol filling.

The other alternative, and this takes us back to the current debate, is the paint band neither green nor pink but rather a discoloured ' white ' band, possibly indicating that at some time, it was converted from a live grenade to a Dummy/Practice grenade.

Regards,

LF

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Here's my example of a Pitcher dummy, complete with fuse mechanism.

Tocemma

This Thread just keeps getting better! what a great example, and the first complete Pitcher Grenade I have seen. You are very fortunate to own it. Thanks for posting.

With regard to your No.5 Mills, and as shown in John's example ( post #204 ) is this discloured paint band the original green, pink or white ?

Regards,

LF

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I got my copy from an American library on a download. Great if you have an original. John

John,

Yes, an original and in excellent condition.

Written in the back of the book, could be the original owners Service Number ?

Regards,

LF

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Tocemma,

Many thanks for posting a photo of your Pitcher Grenade particularly as yours, unlike my example, is complete. I have never seen a good photo of the top of one of these, so thanks for sharing.

Lancashire Fusilier,

Again, many thanks to you for all the trouble you have taken to provide information and photographs. I shouldn't be too concerned about L of C 17837 as, had it been taken seriously at the time, your the manual should have referred to "Grenadiers" in the title.

Regards,

Michael H.

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The other alternative, and this takes us back to the current debate, is the paint band neither green nor pink but rather a discoloured ' white ' band, possibly indicating that at some time, it was converted from a live grenade to a Dummy/Practice grenade.

Regards,

LF

Errr no LF. I can't let you get away with that.

There is no evidence that live grenades were converted to white banded training grenades. This is embellishing an unproved supposition. By the time the No 23 came along (August 1916), a year after September 1915 and the introduction of the all white training grenade, there were adequate supplies of live and training grenades. There would be no reason for local conversion and the possible confusion would be dangerous. The grenade pictured was clearly a live grenade and as per my expert's knowledge the pink band has faded to cream. John Cubin's grenade clearly shows the link to live grenades, as does mine. Both have traces of red on them. Also if John's grenade was used for throwing practice it would have been bashed about. Which it isn't.

We now have 4 No5s in this thread, all photographed in colour, showing a clear cream coloured band. Contrast this with the white paint on the pitcher, which has not in anyway changed to a cream. These No 5's clearly did not start out as white.

John

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Errr no LF. I can't let you get away with that.

John

John,

Now, I did say possibly, not certainly or probably, and at present the debate remains open until positive proof either way is established. Perhaps, we need an expert on WW1 paint!

Regards,

LF

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Lancashire Fusilier,

I shouldn't be too concerned about L of C 17837 as, had it been taken seriously at the time, your the manual should have referred to "Grenadiers" in the title.

Michael H.

Good point, obviously the author at the General Staff had not seen/read the LOC !

Regards,

LF

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LF

Thank you for your reply. I have seen Gunner Bailey's response to yours and am left a wee bit confused (dot com). However, I will watch this thread with much more interest in the subject. Seeing the posts so far only shows me how little I knew about grenades - but I sure am learning! Well done the Forum.

Thanks again,

John.

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Lovely Tocemma! Like Michael H I have seen incomplete Pitchers but I don't think even the IWM has a better example than yours - Congratulations mixed with envy! - SW

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Here is an April 1916 Grenade Instructor's Certificate from the Clapham Common Trench Warfare & Grenade School, issued to a Lieut. N.D. Bisset, Royal Marine Light Infantry.

LF

R. Landers - Grenade

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I've been doing some research on paint on artist's websites and those of paint manufacturers, the British Museum, and others.

The two main constituents of the Pink paint used on Mills grenades are as previously stated are vermillion and zinc oxide. The zinc oxide provides the white base and the vermillion the pink tint. Vermillion is an expensive product. When it is used to make pink paint the end result is a very pale pink. The zinc oxide also has the tendency to accelerate the fading of any colour added to it. As a white base on it's own it last well (as with the Pitcher Grenade). A 28 year study by the Smithsonian showed that Zinc oxide based paints (i.e. mixed with another colour) de-laminate quite quickly especially if exposed to normal levels of UV.

I think this leads me to conclude:

1.The Pink paint on Mills grenades would fade quickly due to the presence of Zinc oxide.

2. The remaining paint would progressively detach itself from metal and other surfaces (as seen in the examples) leaving an inconsistent residue.

3. The pink paint of SommeWalker's grenade is far too dark a shade after 90 years to be considered original.

4. Unless a pink banded Mills has been kept in the dark for 90 years, we are unlikely to see an original with much pink showing (see 1).

John

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John,

Your paint research makes sense, and probably accounts for the extreme rarity of an original pink paint banded Mills No.5 grenade, and I have certainly never seen one.

However, we are still left with the question regarding the white paint banding on a Mills No.5 Grenade, and as well as contacting Darryl Lynn, who refers to a white paint banded Mills No.5 grenade in his book, I have also emailed Rick Landers who shows a white painted banded Mills No.5 Grenade in his reference book ' Grenade '.

Whilst I tend to agree with you regarding the transformation of the paint on the pink paint banded Mills No.5 Grenade, I am still far less convinced as to the same transformation taking place with white paint, which I assume would turn dull white/cream over time, and hopefully we shall hear back from both the authors as to their references to a white paint banded Mills No.5 Grenade in their books.

Regards,

LF

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LF

It all comes back to the paperwork. There was never a specification for a white band. I pretty sure p41 is a simple mis-caption. It happens is all sorts of books.

John

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here is the latest addition to my Collection, a 1915 Mills No.5 Mk.I Grenade by a seldom seen maker ( M. & L.C. Co. Ltd. GY. ) which was the maker mark for the Munitions & Light Castings Co. Ltd. of Granville Street, Grimsby, Lincolnshire, who started manufacturing Mills No.5 Grenades from 23rd July, 1915.

This grenade, also has an unusual type of safety pin, which allows the pin to be locked in place, and then when in the unlocked position, the safety pin is easily pulled from the grenade.

Perhaps, this type of safety pin is specific to M. & L.C. Co. Ltd of Grimsby.

The grenade, still has traces of an original painted coloured band.

LF

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You know LF that if it wasn't for Gunner Bailey's scholarly research to prove the contrary I would have said the remaining paint on your grenade was pink! - SW

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You know LF that if it wasn't for Gunner Bailey's scholarly research to prove the contrary I would have said the remaining paint on your grenade was pink! - SW

Sommewalker,

You may be correct, and after almost 100 years these paint colours have certainly changed.

The interesting thing, and again, it may all be down to the type of paint that was used back then, although we often see traces of the original green, pink or white, I hardly ever see traces of the original red paint that would have been daubed on the top of the grenade along with the green or pink painted lower band ??

Regards,

LF

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Rick Landers the author of the excellent grenade reference book ' Grenade - British and Commonwealth Hand and Rifle Grenades ', has just returned from a holiday, and kindly replied to the question I asked regarding the white banded Dummy Mills No.5 Mk.I grenade which appears on page 41 of his book. Apparently, the grenade in question, comes from the Collection of Norman Bonney who is also extremely knowledgeable on grenades.

In his reply, Rick Landers shares my opinion that although the regulations called for the black stencilled word ' Practice ' to be painted over the white on Dummy/Practice Grenades, under Field conditions, the use of the stencil was not always practical, hence Dummy/Practice grenades exist with just the expediently painted white band.

Here is Rick Landers' reply :-

" The grenade shown on page 41 of my book is certainly different to the official description of the Grenade, hand, practice, No. 5, Mk I given in LoC 18689 however the grenade comes from Norman Bonney’s collection and I would assume that it was converted to a dummy in the field and the white band was easier to add than the stencilled lettering. I can find no LoC or other official reference to the use of a white band however later Mills grenades were completely painted white to indicate a dummy. As Darryl ( Darryl Lynn ) points out on page 17 of his book dummy grenades were painted a variety of colours and ” there are simply too many to detail in this book”.

This grenade is simply an example of the many undocumented variations of the Mills grenade which make it such an interesting item to collect and study. I have no doubt that it is a genuine WWI variation. "

Regards,

Rick

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Well looking at your own grenade in Post # 1 it seems to exhibit about equal loss of paint in red and pink. Those grenades in my collection which retain their original paint also show an equal degree of loss whether it is a little or virtually all. Some of the Mills while having much of their shellac finish show no signs of any coloured bands having been applied and I speculate that these were removed from the production line before the filling stage, either for official purposes or simply as souvenirs. However I would put black as a clear winner in the retention stakes. - SW

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Sommewalker,

You may be correct, and after almost 100 years these paint colours have certainly changed.

The interesting thing, and again, it may all be down to the type of paint that was used back then, although we often see traces of the original green, pink or white, I hardly ever see traces of the original red paint that would have been daubed on the top of the grenade along with the green or pink painted lower band ??

Regards,

LF

Here are examples of surviving red and pink paint. These are two different grenades, a 5 and a 23.

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