I need your help again lads and lassies.

[museumtom]

Excellent stuff lads, thank you very much. The only newspaper date on the Tipp Star was 06/12 so this must have been later in the month, sorry lads. Having said all that, with all your findings we have....Soldier’ Fatal Accident. On Tuesday Private Michael Noonan, of the 2nd Battalion, Royal Irish Regiment, a native of Waterford, was on his way to Castletownbere from Portobello Barracks, Dublin. On arrival at the Thurles Railway Station, in the afternoon, he got out of the train, and went down town, returning t the station at 9 p.m. in order to take the 9.30 p.m. train to Cork. At the railway station the soldier seems to have got somewhat noisy and when the train from Dublin arrived he at first refused to get in. The Sergeant who was with him got into the train, leaving the man on the platform, but just as the train got in motion Private Noonan made a dash to get in. he did not succeed in catching hold of the door handle, but caught the irons at the end of the two adjoining carriages, so that he was between two carriages. With the motion of the train he got swung into the space between the carriages and was knocked down on the rails, the wheels of a carriage passing over his legs. The train was immediately stopped, and the unfortunate man was taken out from beneath the train in an unconscious state. He was taken to Thurles Workhouse Hospital by Constables Barrett and Pratt, where it was seen that the wheels had passed over his left leg and the right heel, crushing the limbs to a pulp. An operation was performed by Doctors Callanan and Barry, but the man died from the effects of his injuries at 9 a.m. on Wednesday morning. The Coroner did not deem an inquest necessary. The Anglo-Celt. 22/12/1917. 3251. From Day to Day. Private Noonan was killed at Waterford through falling between the carriages of a train. Evening Herald. 23/04/1917. Soldiers Sentenced. Findings of Portobello Courts Martial. At a district court martial at Portobello Barracks on the 21st April, 1917. No 16550, Private J Healy, 4th R.I.F., No 1605, Private M Noonan, 2nd (H.H.S.), Gn Battalion, R.I.R., were tried on the following charges:1st Charge-When on active service, assault on a peace officer in the execution of his duty. 2nd charge-Do. 3rd Charge-When on active service, conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline, in that he, at Kingstown on the 8th April, 1917, sang in the street a song of a seditious nature. The finding of the court in each case was not guilty of the third charge, but guilty of the first and second charges. The court sentenced each of the accused to be imprisoned with hard labour for six calendar months. The finding and sentence of the court were duly confirmed by the Officer Commanding the Dublin District, who, however commuted the imprisonment awarded to detention for six months.....Listed here under Michael Collins-Tipperary Star, December, 1917.Mangled at Thurles. Soldier’s Sad death. Michael Collins, a private soldier in the English army, was the victim of a regrettable and fatal accident at Thurles station on Tuesday night. According to the police it appears that Collins, who was apparently of an excitable disposition, was in the act of boarding a carriage at the 9-15 p.m., train when he missed his footing and fell between two carriages just as the train began to move. He was hurled under the carriage wheels which passed over his arms and legs; the alarm was sounded and when the train pulled to again the poor fellow was picked up in a dying condition, with his limbs horribly bruised and mangled. He was taken to the workhouse hospital by members of the Thurles R.I.C., and had one of his legs amputated, but no hope was entertained for his recovery and he died at 9 o’clock next morning. Doctors Callanan and Jackman rendered medical assistance. On admission to the hospital the deceased gave Waterford City as his address where he said his wife and children four children reside. Having seen long service at the front and being rendered unfit, on account of wounds, for active fighting he was classed for Home service; he was travelling from Portobello Barracks, Dublin, to Berehaven, for Garrison duty there, and broke the journey at Thurles there, where he stayed for some hours until the arrival of the night train from Dublin. It is alleged that ---the train’s arrival the deceased who was waiting on the platform carried on---argument with some policemen and others on matters of political import, and a scuffle took place and the soldier shouted Sinn Fein cries, creating not a little commotion on the platform. The District Coroner, on being made aware of the facts of the case, did not deem an inquest necessary.

[museumtom]

I have him listed twice in the database, so I will remove Michael Collins now and all will be well.

 Thanks again lads and lassies!

[George Millar]

His death on the 6th/7th December was probably correct, hence the newspaper article. Perhaps the reason for the record of his death on the 12th December 1917 was that they thought there would be a coroner's inquest but as this was ruled out then they could go ahead with registering the death, It's only my interpretation of what happened but I could be wrong.

George 

Edited 1 March by George Millar

[museumtom]

It is all helpful stuff George, thank you.

[museumtom]

Hello again all. Wea re trying to see if there are any records available for this sailor please. Patrick Forristall, ship Nitokris. Died 1920. Can you help please?

Edited 7 March by museumtom

[Mark1959]

The Seaman's death record has the same address as a man with the same name discharged from the army on 23/10/16 due to attributable contusion to back. Connaught Rangers 4412, Source is fold 3 pension card

edit

There are several cards and one has the same DoD and cause of death as the seaman's; death so definitely same man. 3rd Connaughts

There is Naval Medal roll record for a Patrick Forristal Briticsh War Medal only RME 5690/S. A ;possible

Edited 7 March by Mark1959

[George Rayner]

12 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

The Seaman's death record has the same address as a man

Is there an enlistment form for him as a sailor, or what  his number is, to check if it mentions any previous service Mark?

George

[Mark1959]

Not found an enlistment form. But there is a man with same name but one L from Waterford who enlisted In Royal Irish militia in 1893.

Look's like Tom's man actually born 1876 ish

See my note in previous edited about poss RN number

As 4412 CR 1914/5 Star trio. Entered France 11/5/1915

 

Edited 7 March by Mark1959

[George Rayner]

24 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

poss RN number

apologies missed it

George

[George Millar]

Tom,

I think this could be your man, named Patrick Forristall, died in Hospital in Alexandria from Typhus Fever.

George

[George Rayner]

1 minute ago, George Millar said:

I think this could be your man, named Patrick Forristall, died in Hospital in Alexandria from Typhus Fever.

Yes that's the one. We're trying to join dots with his story. As Mark has said he was 3rd Connaught Rangers-and possibly Royal Irish Regiment, and also possibly Irish Militia being discharged 1916 with wounds (contusions of/on back).

Wondering if his official documents for Naval service are anywhere as they may have information on his previous war service etc just to confirm everything.

Pension cards, dates etc tally but it doesn't help that there are at least three different spellings of his family name

George

[George Millar]

Tom,

Patrick Forristal who was in the Connaught Rangers and who was discharged in 1916 with wounds I believe is the same man who served on the Nitokris, I'll explain. According to Patrick Forristal's Pension records, his widow was listed as Margaret Forristal. Patrick was married to Margaret Heaney on the 2nd October 1898 in Waterford. After Patrick died she remarried to William Fitzgerald in 1921 in Waterford. If you look at the marriage record for 1921 you will see her maiden name was Heaney and her address was listed as Harringtons Lane in Waterford, nearly the same address as in the record for Patrick who served on the Nitokris (4 Harrisons Lane, Waterford). I don't know Waterford that well that I can tell if there are both the address's in the town. I could be wrong but I'm fairly certain they are the same man. (see attached marriage records). By the way, I cannot find a record of Patrick's naval service anywhere.

George

[museumtom]

Brilliant stuff lads, great finds, thank you very much for all your help. I did wonder if he was Merchant Navy?

[George Millar]

Tom,

Firstly I have found there is a Harringtons Lane in Waterford but cannot find a Harrisons Lane. I also think that Patrick was in the Merchant Navy and on checking the National Archives site have found two crew records for a Pat Forristal, a "Fireman", one on the S.S Cornubia and another on the S.S Sheerness. Unfortunately these are listed in 1915 which would then go against my previous conclusion of him being the soldier who served with the Connaught Rangers as he was only discharged in 1916. They both show different ages so more research is required.

George 

Edited 7 March by George Millar

[museumtom]

Thank you these finds George, its mysterious to be sure.

[George Rayner]

The fellow who died in Alexandria was also a 'fireman'.

George

[PaulC78]

I've had a look online for the Nitokris (or Nitocris), nothing substantial but so far as I can tell it was a German steamer seized by Chilean authorities in 1918 and managed post war by the Pacific Steam Navigation Company. So I would guess that Forristall was Merchant Navy.

Was just about to say (before George beat me to it!) that I found his name on two crew lists on TNA, but for the Cornubia and Chagres:

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14663322

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14584638

I looked for the RME number posted above by Mark but can only find the medal roll.

 

[George Millar]

For Merchant sailors, they would have had a CR1 card which was introduced in 1913 and which gave some details of the sailor eg date & place of birth etc. It was usually completed in a port mercantile office at the same time as a new discharge book was issued and contains the seaman's personal details together with his Discharge A number and often his signature. It can be thought of as a receipt for the issue of the discharge book. However, unfortunately most of the early cards (pre 1921) were destroyed so that avenue for research is closed.

George

[museumtom]

Great finds thank you lads. Trying to join up all the dots is difficult though. I was thinking he may have been a pre war sailor and joined the army for a change. According to his M.I.C. he enlisted 23/09/1914, would that rule out your man George? Even so he does look one and the same to be fair.

[George Millar]

Tom,

I'm like you, I still believe it's the same man, It's just the date of 1915 for the crew lists that's causing me some doubts. I'll have another look at his army details to see if anything comes up.

George

[museumtom]

Thank you George and all the lads and lassies, very much appreciated.

[George Rayner]

What does it say on SWB for his dates?

I'm in the garden...being busy!

[George Millar]

Tom,

Don't know where to start with this one. Did some more digging and Patrick seemed to be in & out of trouble most of his life. For example, in 1897 he went to prison for being absent from training with the  4th battalion Royal Irish Regiment. Trade or occupation given was a "Fireman on board ship". Listed as having been born in "Barrack Street". Then in 1900 he was in the Petty Session court for assaulting his wife Margaret (drunk at the time). Then after this he was in & out of the Petty Sessions for one thing or the other but in 1914 he was in prison again for assault and "grievous bodily harm", his address being given as Harringtons Lane and next of kin listed as Margaret. Then nearly every month up to 1919 he was in and out of the Petty Sessions court nearly every month although many times he never attended. I think most of these was for not paying his rent to the landlord for his house in Harringtons Lane. I thought it might have given us the information that he was either a soldier or a seaman but this wasn't the case. I did find him in the 1911 Census of Ireland living in N° 4 Blakes Lane in Waterford with wife Margaret & 7 children. I think he's our man but further investigation to make sure.

George

Images courtesy of Ancestry

[museumtom]

Thank you George, that is some heavy research you got there old son. It cannot have been easy getting it all together thank you kindly, I really appreciate it. And thank you to all who helped nail down this lad.

 Kind regards.

Tom.

[PaulC78]

Hi folks, I'm struggling with this man from Baltinglass. John Kinsella, discharged from Royal Dublin Fusiliers on 28/04/1916 with a fractured leg, but apparently re-enlisted with the Royal Army Service Corps and died in service from tuberculosis on 13/02/1920. All I can find are pension cards, no other military records or a death certificate.

(Images from Fold3)