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paullucas01

Lithuanians sent from Scotland to Russia

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frances togneri

Cat - I will pass on your information to my cousin. He is trying to track down his grandfather who we suspect was Lithuanian but was obviously around Edinburgh while my own grandfather was in Russia. Needless to say we only have a name and occupation on the birth certificate.

I was in touch with someone who has been researching the Russia aspect longer than I have. See below for his comments:

  1. In 1916, the British Government introduced conscription with the Military Service Act (1916). This excluded the citizens of Allies including Russia. However, this special status created considerable resentment, particularly in London, as some sections of the Russian-Jewish population indicated that they were not willing to serve in the Allied cause. As a result, a proposal for a military agreement with the Russian government was suggested to the British Ambassador in Petrograd. The intention was to enlist Russian Jews of military age into the British Army since it was deemed too difficult to deport them because of immigrant opposition and shipping difficulties. When a draft agreement was sent to the British Ambassador he was advised to inform the Russian government that there were “over 20,000 Russians of military age in London alone and it was right that this man-power should be utilized”. He was also informed that shipping facilities for this number were to be made available to satisfy the Russian government and secure the agreement. This was a Government deception. Firstly, it had been established that few of the Russian immigrants would elect to return to Russia. Secondly, at a meeting on 11 June 1917 the Admiralty had stated that it was only prepared to convey 6,000 men to Russia. This figure was not disclosed to the Russian government for fear that the scheme would be defeated. The true intention was revealed in a Home office note that the House of Commons was informed that they are giving the Russians the option of returning to Russia but that it will be physically impossible for them to exercise that option! Moreover, they believed that the difficulty would disappear, as nearly all will prefer the British Army. I believe Hansard retains details of what was said in the House of Commons. I have not checked these.

  1. Subsequently, Britain signed the Anglo-Russian Military Convention on 16 July 1917. This related to “the reciprocal liability to military service of British subjects resident in Russia and Russian subjects resident in Great Britain.” As Lithuania was regarded as part of Imperial Russia, this included all Lithuanians living in Scotland. Consequently, all Lithuanian males between the ages of 18 and 41 were offered the choice of joining the British Army or to go back to Russia/Lithuania and join the Russia Army. In the Lanarkshire area of Scotland, 2,175 so called “Russians” were liable for military service and almost 85 per cent were called up. Out of the 1800 Lithuanians called up, 700 joined the British Army and 1,100 chose deportation to Russia. The Lanarkshire conscripts were not Russian Jews but Catholic immigrants from the Lithuanian community. Fewer than 350 are known to have returned to Scotland and these comprised individuals who could prove that they fought on the Allied side in Russia or in the Slavo-British Legion in North Russia. It was reported that 82 Lithuanians were allowed to return in September 1919 in MH 57 184228/20/1111. Hom.e Office document 45 10823/318095/704 REPORTEDLY puts the number at 68 BUT I HAVE NOT SIGHTED THIS DOCUMENT MYSELF. However, it would appear that there were 12 on the Cap Verde on 4/9/1919. Moreover, as many of those who had left for Russia were not allowed to return to Britain after the war their families were forced to leave Scotland after the British Government suspended dependents’ allowances.

  1. The North Russian Expedition was part of the Allied Intervention in Russia after the 1917 October Revolution. The intervention brought the involvement of foreign troops in the Russian Civil War on the side of the White movement. The Northern campaign lasted from the final months of World War I in 1918 through to 1919. British Mission called “ELOPE” role at Archangel, in Russia, was to muster anti-Bolshevik forces into trained formations. On 31st July 1918 a naval force carrying British and French troops attacked Archangel, and with the aid of an anti-Bolshevik uprising, captured the town. This made it possible to transfer the “ELOPE” party to Archangel during August. Within two months a large area of Northern Russia had been freed of Bolsheviks. The initial military objective had been achieved. However, as result of a number of difficulties, including army mutinies, the political decision was taken to withdraw from North Russia. My grandfather was a PTE in S.B.L. (Slavo-British Legion), attached to the Royal Engineers was examined on 30 August 1919 by G.H.Q. Intelligence British Military, at Archangel, and was recommended for evacuation to Scotland in recognition of services to the Allied Forces. The official document shows that the intention was to evacuate him to Libau in Latvia, but this was crossed out and replaced by Scotland. The British retained a mission at Libau in Latvia. What I would like to know is what were these services to the allies forces?
  2. The Lithuania papers in Scotland The Emigrants Friend and The Worker ”Rankpelis” listed the names all the Lithuanians who were killed during the war in Russia. I have not checked the list as my grandfather returned.
  3. The Aliens Restriction Act of 5 August 1914 stipulated that all aliens resident in the country had to be registered. Registration took place at police station and each alien was issued with a Certificate of Registration. Unfortunately, the police archives in Scotland have stated that all such registrations are destroyed 100 years after the birth of the person concerned. The restrictions placed on immigration during the First World War under the Aliens Restriction Act of August 1914 ended immigration from Lithuania for the duration of the conflict. The Act forced the Lithuanians to register as Aliens, despite the fact that some of them had been living in Scotland for many years.
  4. A ban on Russian refugees entering Britain was operating from December 1917. There were doubts cast on the loyalty of those who had chosen to join the Russian rather than the British Army. Also the threat of Bolshevism sealed the fate of the Lithuanians in Scotland. Remember the Anglo-Russian ARGREEMENT WAS IMPLEWMENTED IN Scotland within weeks but this was not the case in London. For example, in London in February 1918 it was estimated that over 8,000 Russians managed to evade military service. It was found that an extraordinary number had been granted exemption certificates by the Russian Vice-Council in London. This was not the case in Scotland.
  5. Any list of deported Lithuanians will include those who were deported for political, criminal reasons not just those who chose to join the Russian Army.

There are some areas here that can be followed up and may answer some questions we have been asking. Here again are the two War Office documents discussing the decision to send the 'Russians' home.

War Cabinet Summary Briefing April 26 1917, Eastern Report 13, National Archives 24/143

War Cabinet Summary Briefing May 3 1917, Eastern Report 14, National Archives 24/143

There are also interesting articles in Russian on the Internet - using a translation program it looks as though the Bolshevik troops claimed they had shot a large number of the opposing Russians and set up a labour camp at Archangel where many prisoners were tortured, starved or died from various diseases. I am looking for someone to translate.

Frances

I

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frances togneri

Cat - If you would like to see the complete story of the scotlandspeople article (minus the later family stuff) contact me on my own email.

Frances

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silvestris

Great work Frances!

It may not be of use to any of us (since all of our ancestors survived their time in North Russia), but perhaps it is worth reading through the Scottish-Lithuanian newspapers. In addition to listing those killed in action, they may provide other information. Does anybody know if they have been archived? Any suggestions of where to look?

Presumably, they are written in Lithuanian. My uncle can probably help with translation.

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frances togneri

I had a seach today but came up with nothing. Maybe another search can yield better results. I will try again.

Frances

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eltoro1960

I would be very interested in any information from these about Lithuanians living in Newtongrange, Midlothian. There was a large Lithuanian community which largely disappeared post WW1.

A good few did serve with HM Forces and 4 Lithuanians and a Ukranian are commemorated on the local war memorial. I also assisted a friend to have her G Uncle Zigmas Vilkaitis commemorated on Glenboig war memorial.

John

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frances togneri

Hello John - Welcome

The only information I have on Newtongrange is the article:

Nitten Aliens: Researching an immigrant community by Alex McKinnon 2006 - www.slainte.org.uk/files/pdf/cilips/locscot/autumn06.pdf

Worth a read if you haven't seen it already. The other one I used was Newbattle at War, but I have just noticed you have listed it - written by John Duncan. Is this your website?. I contacted the mining museum there but they don't have information on people who were employed. I originally thought there was a possiblity my grandparents had come over in one of the coal ships because it seemed odd they had settled at Edinburgh when Lanarkshire was the main destination for other Lithuanians. However, I recently met someone whose has traced his family from Stoneyburn and Forth to Dalkeith. I will send an invite to look at this forum. He may have some information.

Re previous discussion: I am still waiting for news from Glasgow Archives. It seems there is a waiting list so it could be some time before I hear anything. I have contacted Newcastle Archives but they could not find any links for Lithuanians. They sent a link to their own archive site and for the Port. I have run a number of searches but although I found a few possibles, nothing than looks worth following. Maybe I am just not hitting the correct keywords - will have another try.

Frances

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paullucas01

My understanding is that the vast majority of immigrants entered through the Humberside ports. From there, they would take the Great Central Railway to Manchester and Liverpool.

http://www.exodus2013.co.uk/short-sea-migration-to-the-uk/

My grandfather and his family arrived at Grimsby. I have found very little information linking the Lithuanians to Edinburgh / Leith for immigration despite many anecdoctal comments.

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frances togneri

So far little success with newspaper articles. There are a few copies of papers published in Bellshill at the following site but I have not found anything in the correct time frame. Only one from 1930 is in English. Worth a browse for background if you can read Lithuanian. Still searching.

http://www.epaveldas.lt/vbspi/content/simpleSearch.jsp

Frances

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silvestris

Paul, I do know that a lot of Baltic timber was imported through Leith and (presumably) coal traveled back in the other direction. It's plausible these trade connections also saw the transport of people. I've been to the Trinity House Maritime Museum in Leith and asked about this, but they weren't able to help with information about passenger lists.

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silvestris

Frances, I had a quick look through the newspapers. That site does have some issues of "Rankpelnis" (http://www.epaveldas.lt/vbspi/biSerial.do?biRecordId=13783), which is the the socialist paper that was published by the Lithuanian-Scottish community. Not many issues are available, but there is one from 16 July 1920 (http://www.epaveldas.lt/vbspi/biRecord.do?biExemplarId=124846). That is approximately 3 months after my great grandmother returned to Lithuania to join my great grandfather who was not allowed re-entry to Scotland. I will bring the paper to my uncle who can help translate when I see him later this month.

If anybody finds anything that looks promising, do let me know and I will have him look at it too.

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frances togneri

Paul

I checked the site. I think Grimsby is only one of many ports used. I was told that Juozas Papilauskas (definitely!) arrived in Newcastle, but I have been provided no proof therefore I still have doubts that this is true. I would not be surprised to find he arrived elsewhere.

I did speak with someone who found her family by entering 'sailings into scotland from hamburg (+date)' and the name she was searching popped up on the screen! Having been given this hint I tried this and variations but found nothing. I agree that ports in the south east of England are more likely because the crossing is shorter and ports larger. It really is a shame that many records of passengers to the UK from European ports have been lost due to bomb damage and lack of storage space. I have lost count of the number of sites I visited trying to find this information. It seems so much easier if these people travelled to a more distant location!

I checked Newcastle and Leith as possible ports for Lithuanians leaving this country in 1917 for Russia. I still feel the information must have been held by the police special branch or other government officials rather than by a shipping company, although I would not discount these. Two ports have been suggested - Liverpool and Grimsby(following an uplift from Tower Bridge, London) - though the latter was in relation to British troops being sent to Russia and the movement was carried out in secrecy. The men we are interested in were not just civillians but 'Aliens'. In military or police minds, this makes a huge difference. I have no idea why some at least, travelled to Newcastle, but the proof is there. See attached page from a relatives deportation and return.

post-93046-0-28757900-1354539939_thumb.j

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paullucas01

Frances, so he was "deported" from Newcastle-upon-Tyne on 17 October 1917 ? Is my understanding correct ?

Paul

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frances togneri

Silvestris

Glad you found the newspaper interesting. Hope there is some value for you. I found a site with links to other papers, many printed in Bellshill, but the years were well out of the time frame. Other papers were printed in Chicago or Kleipaeda so were much more general. I've asked a friend to check Scran for me because she subscribes. I know there is a 1914 copy available but this is too early. icon.crl.edu/digitization.htm

Frances

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frances togneri

Paul

Yes. The front of the certificate states he has applied to go to Russia. I don't know whether the Aliens Officer was police or a government official attached to the port. I have not found a possible ship name. The second stamp implies he was on one of the later ships returning or he disembarked at a port some way from home or he was a bit lazy about reporting his arrival to the local police. I suspect there wasn't a special branch office at Motherwell although today Motherwell is the main police station for the area - he lived at Carfin. The function was obviously delegated to a high ranking officer.

Someone posted a request for information about deportees unable to leave from Liverpool because the ship was damaged in the Mersey. The men were taken by train and placed in a camp in the north of England before being taken to Newcastle for their ship. The date given was around the 15th October 1917. I don't remember where I came across this post. At least one ship therefore called at Newcastle. It may have originated from some other port and Newcastle was just a collection point.

Frances

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eltoro1960

Hello John - Welcome

The only information I have on Newtongrange is the article:

Nitten Aliens: Researching an immigrant community by Alex McKinnon 2006 - www.slainte.org.uk/files/pdf/cilips/locscot/autumn06.pdf

Worth a read if you haven't seen it already. The other one I used was Newbattle at War, but I have just noticed you have listed it - written by John Duncan. Is this your website?. I contacted the mining museum there but they don't have information on people who were employed. I originally thought there was a possiblity my grandparents had come over in one of the coal ships because it seemed odd they had settled at Edinburgh when Lanarkshire was the main destination for other Lithuanians. However, I recently met someone whose has traced his family from Stoneyburn and Forth to Dalkeith. I will send an invite to look at this forum. He may have some information.

Re previous discussion: I am still waiting for news from Glasgow Archives. It seems there is a waiting list so it could be some time before I hear anything. I have contacted Newcastle Archives but they could not find any links for Lithuanians. They sent a link to their own archive site and for the Port. I have run a number of searches but although I found a few possibles, nothing than looks worth following. Maybe I am just not hitting the correct keywords - will have another try.

Frances

Hi Frances

It is indeed my website and I have helped the Scottis Lithuanian Society from time to time as well. Re the 'east coasters' The empty coal ships returning to Leith often seemed to pick up unofficial passengers to boost their income, and as they were unofficial no records were kept. The Lothian Coal Company had just built a new pit,the Lady Victoria, at Newtongrange and they were desperate for labour. On their journey to Leith with coal they were to offer any man fit and able a job and a house.

Many men realising they had been conned and not in America, opted for a job / house rather than being left on the street.

Several hundred Lithuanians lived in Newtongrange up to WW1 after the war many had simply disappered to Russia/ immigrated to USA or had married into Scotsfamilies and took on their names.

I have a database of them listing the unoffical 'Scotski' type names and where it was possible to identify it their proper name. I have attached a small extract of the 800 or so entries I have recorded. (EDIT The formatting has been stripped out I will resubmit in a different format)

John

Immigrant Data ID Surname Forename Male Female Address House Number Year Source Other Surname Other Forename Remarks 92 Horemanski Anthonie Yes No Dean Park 117 1912 Valuation Roll Wilsonski Anthony 258 Huntus Anthony Yes No Monkswood 85 1904 Valuation Roll Powilaitis Anthony 250 Huntus Anthony Yes No Monkswood 85 1903 Valuation Roll Powilaitis Anthony 287 Huntuski Anthony Yes No Monkswood 85 1905 Valuation Roll Powilaitis Anthony 270 Huntuski Anthony Yes No Monkswood 85 1905 Valuation Roll Powilaitis Anthony 401 Jankanchas John Yes No Monkswood 21 1909 Valuation Roll Jenkauskis Jonas 367 Jankanchas John Yes No Monkswood 21 1908 Valuation Roll Jenkauskis Jonas 443 Justinkis Wladislowas Yes No Abbeyland 40 1917 MIC Justinszas Wladislozas Pte 48804 Royal Scots same block of numbers as 48807 Jurjas Baranckas 835 Justinskis Wladislowas Yes No 1918 MIC Justinszas Wladislozas Pte 48804 Royal Scots, 1911 Marriage Certificate 238 Justinskis Wladislowas Yes No Abbeyland 40 1918 MIC Justinszas Wladislozas Pte 48804 Royal Scots, 1911 Marriage Certificate Cofirme 260 Kalvaitis Antantas Yes No Monkswood 25 1906 Marriage Certificate Keeburie Anthony Married to Mare Karsmonute 836 Karsmonute Mare No Yes Monkswood 24a 1906 Wedding Certificate 261 Karsmonute Mare No Yes Monkswood 24 1906 Marriage Certificate Married to Antanas Kalvaitis 837 Kavaitis Antansa Yes No Monkswood 25a 1906 Wedding Certificate 838 Kazamekaitis Simonas Yes No MIC Smith Charles

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eltoro1960

Reposted as a short word doc.

John

Immigrant Data extract.doc

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frances togneri

John

Did you ever come across the following? The Anglicized name is Brownsavage. The original Lithuanian name is possibly Bromkeurcziu.

Frances

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paullucas01

Frances,

- savage is a corruption of the ending -sevicius - which corresponds to -shevichius (with carets over the s and c)

Male ending is -ius, married female ending is -iene abd unmarried female is -iute for -ius ending surnames.

- Bromkeurcziu - looks like a combination of English and Polish spelling

So what was the original ? This is like guess work not detective work - (with the caret over the c) - it could be Bronkevicius or Bromkevicius (both unlikely) or Brokevicius (which is a Lithuanian surname)

Can you provide more information such as the BMD certificate ?

the board does not display the characters correctly - it should be -sevicius with carets over s and c

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frances togneri

Paul

Seeing the info re Lithuanian names, I posted the previous. I have no further knowledge but I have sent an email to the person originally asking the question. I will get back to you on this. Thanks

Frances

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eltoro1960

John

Did you ever come across the following? The Anglicized name is Brownsavage. The original Lithuanian name is possibly Bromkeurcziu.

Frances

Afraid not, we did have John & Anthony Savage / Savageski which it turns out was Jouzas & Antanas Sliesoraitis. Also lots of Brown/ski.

Happy to check any names. I am now checking off the 1911 valuation roll against the 1911 Census to 'translate' the names as the census taker is more accurate (I think) than the valuator. The majority of the names are men, as I was looking at them from a military service elegibilty angle, so I concentrated on men 16 to 40 in 1911.

John

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silvestris

John,

Any chance you've got a Juozas Valaitis on the list? Or Konstantinas Adomaviezic (eventually changed to Adams)?

Have you posted the full list anywhere online? It could be really useful. Thanks!

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eltoro1960

John,

Any chance you've got a Juozas Valaitis on the list? Or Konstantinas Adomaviezic (eventually changed to Adams)?

Have you posted the full list anywhere online? It could be really useful. Thanks!

Nothing I'm afraid thought I might have but on checking it was Jonas Vaskelis aka William Millerski (how the hell did they get one from the other) who lived in the village 1912 to 1915 and joined the Royal Scots.

I have so far tied up 'Millerski' to the following proper surnames.

Waliukas / Tuskaitis/ Anuszkewice and Vaskelis

You can see the problems people have tracing their families.

John

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paullucas01

Waliukas - no W in the Lithuanian alphabet so it is Valiukas

Tuskaitis is not a Lithuanian name but there are plenty of names beginning with Tusk

Anuszkewice is Anuskevic (with a caret over the s and the c)

Vaskelis (with a caret over the s) is a Lithuanian name

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paullucas01

Sliesoraitis is a proper Lithuanian name

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frances togneri

John

Bet you are sorry you mentioned names!!!!

The people who asked me about the names posted in my last message (BrownSavage) could not find their relative in the 1901 census although they were in the country then. I found two possible scotlandspeople records on-line I don't think they have but I forgot the computers in Edinburgh can only be searched in 5 year blocks. Very frustrating! Anyone who is going there should bear this in mind. I now need more credits - Scottish libraries stock them at a lower cost! However I will pass it back to the family for follow-up. Do you only have information for Newtongrange area?

Frances

Frances

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