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paullucas01

Lithuanians sent from Scotland to Russia

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paullucas01

All the records in both files pertain to the Russians and Poles in London or the Home Counties.

There was one record of interest:

there was a document from 15th March 1919

Mr J Klastaitis of 80 Main Street Bellshill requested repatriation for himself, his wife and their five children aged 11, 9, 7, 4, and 2.

There is an interesting letter from the end of 1919 referring to the Lithuanian women and children in Scotland - it uses "Lithuanian" which is unusual. I will transcribe it later tonight.

The records should be in the Scottish Office archives I assume ?

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frances togneri

Drat!

Will have another think on this one and let you know if anything interesting arises.

Frances

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paullucas01

Page 2 of memo

Interesting that the Provisional Government of Lithuania is opposed to the return of the men to the UK

post-78946-0-69167000-1351026522_thumb.j

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frances togneri

Paul

Interesting document. Now we have evidence some of the Lithuanians tried to get back here but were refused. I wonder if these were the ones who later wrote to their families? I also wonder if there are accessable records of these applications. I have received email from people who know only that their relative went to Russia in 1917 and was never heard from again. If such a thing exists, they would have somewhere to start their search.

Frances

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silvestris

Very interesting, Paul. I presume they are once again being referred to as Lithuanians (rather than "Russians") because Lithuania had regained independence in February of 1918.

I could only guess that the reason the Provisional Government of Lithuania does not object to the suggested repatriation of dependent families to Lithuania is that they would like to see emigrants come home and help build their newly independent country - perhaps a bit shortsighted if you consider the trauma of being dislocated from the only place you have ever known (as was the case for my great-grandmother and great-uncle, who were born in Glasgow but sent to Lithuania to rejoin my great-grandfather).

Paul, were you saying that you think the other half of these letters would be held in the Scottish Office? Would they not be held in a more centralized archive by now?

Frances, I'm guessing that the others that have emailed you are responding to your story in the Scotland's People newsletter - I saw it just a few days ago. Do encourage them to follow (and contribute!) to this forum.

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paullucas01

I have been looking for the records of the 1,100 men who were sent to Russia in 1917, of whom 350 returned, and the 600 women and children who were deported in 1920. These records may be in Edinburgh in the National Archives of Scotland - and I emphasise the "may be"

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frances togneri

Yes - I am famous now!!!! I receive a few emails each day and do my best to advise and encourage. Sadly, I don't know how some can progress their search. I have suggested to a few that they have a browse through the various threads in this forum.

There are a few documents held in the Scottish Archives that look promising. If they are I may plan a trip up to Edinburgh. I will get back to you with details. Still some searching to do.

Frances

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frances togneri

The forum has been quiet for a while - I assume we are all deflated after the disappointment at Kew!

I have been following a lead for the Scottish Archives, but it only covers the period 1914 - 1915 and I suspect it will only hold information about people of German origin. Never daunted, I have spoken to people at Edinburgh and expained what I am trying to find. I followed this with a 'Request for Information' and have been assured the team will see if they can find anything.

Thanks,Paul, for assisting one of the people who had emailed me! She now feels she might get somewhere. I have spoken with another who had not considered her relative could have been sent to Russia - she assumed births in the 1920's mean the family all remained in Scotland. I am checking all other emails again.

I will let you know what the outcome of my enquiry is. The staff are not particularly hopeful as this information should be in London, if it exists.

Frances

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frances togneri

Still searching...........

In reply to your email of 29th October, I have checked our file series HH31 for any mention of Lithuanians or Russians without success. I found the following information on the Parliamentary Archives website.

The Aliens Registration Act (Aliens Registration Act 1914) made mandatory the registration of all aliens over the age of 16 with the police and, for the first time in history, the government had some reasonably accurate information concerning migrants in terms of numbers, places of residence, occupations and race. No central register survives but sometimes these records survive in the records of the local police forces.

Unfortunately there appears to be no extant central register. The National Archives in Kew states that they only hold index cards for those aliens registered in London which you have already found. The main deposit of Lanarkshire Police records is with Glasgow City Archives (reference SR22/77A-83) although there are no registers of aliens listed in their summary catalogue.

In reply to your email of 29th October, I have checked our file series HH31 for any mention of Lithuanians or Russians without success. I found the following information on the Parliamentary Archives website.

The Aliens Registration Act (Aliens Registration Act 1914) made mandatory the registration of all aliens over the age of 16 with the police and, for the first time in history, the government had some reasonably accurate information concerning migrants in terms of numbers, places of residence, occupations and race. No central register survives but sometimes these records survive in the records of the local police forces.

Unfortunately there appears to be no extant central register. The National Archives in Kew states that they only hold index cards for those aliens registered in London which you have already found. The main deposit of Lanarkshire Police records is with Glasgow City Archives (reference SR22/77A-83) although there are no registers of aliens listed in their summary catalogue.

I now have an enquiry with the Glasgow Archives.

I will let you know what transpires.

Frances

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dubs

Hello - I have been reading this topic with interest as I too am trying to find out more about my great-grandfather, Juozas Ziurinskas, who came to Scotland with his wife Maryona Roversteinas in 1913 from Vystitis in Lithuania. Grandpa Ziurinskas chose to return to Russia in 1917 when given the choice whether to fight with the Russians or the British Army. According to my Mum (his grandaughter) he was at Archangel. She says that he fought with the White Russians but on finding himself on the 'wrong side', presumably because the Tsar had been overthrown, he made his way back to Scotland overland. We have no more information than this, so naturally I am watching this topic with interest. Presumably he must have had proof that he fought on the Allies side or he wouldnt have been let back into Britain - can I assume from that that he was part of the Slavo-British Legion?? My Mum says he was part of the British Expeditionary Force.....Any help is most welcome. Cat

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frances togneri

Apologies to all for the duplication in an earlier message - I just noticed it. No word as yet from Glasgow. I will give them a few more days and get in touch to find out what they have. I must say it doesn't look promising. In the meantime I spoke with an archivist at Edinburgh City archives, He seemed to know what I was looking for and was quite certain that all information gathered by the police in relation to Aliens registration was destroyed. The opinion at the time was that it was of no interest to be kept. Looking to the future interest in genealogy was, of course, not a consideration. However, it does now seem that the police (special branch) would hold the paperwork involved and would pass it on to the local archival agency. If it still exists, It should all be at Kew is the general opinion.

Hi dubs/Cat - welcome to our conversation topic. I think you are on the right track. I have seen reports that morale was very low because many of the men could not understand why they were fighting, especially once word reached that and armistice was signed and the war had ended. It is not impossible your ggrandfather made his way overland, but I am not sure how easy it would be to get back into the UK. Do you need pointers on background reading? Some have been given in this forum but there is much more out there! What actually took place in Russia depends whether he joined the Slavo-British Legion. I wonder whether we can get the names of the people who returned on the ships from Archangel and Murmansk? Thoughts anyone????

Framces

Frances

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dubs

Hello Frances,

Any further pointers on background reading would be much appreciated! I did think it a bit odd that he made his way home overland, I must say. Not sure where that particular bit of information came from. I have recently made contact with my Mum's cousin who is also very interested to find out about Grandpa Ziurinskas - he seems to have lots of bits of information about him, which he has photocopied and given to my Mum. My Mum is visiting in a few weeks and bringing this info so hopefully I will get a few more leads. Things I know for sure is that my great-grandma was pregnant with my grandad (also called Juozas) when they left Lithuania and that Juozas and Maryona werent married at this point - they made their way to Great-Grandma's sister, Rosalie Roversteinas, who had previously left Lithuania for Germany. My grandad Juozas was born in Essen, Germany in August 1912 (no birth certificate found, unfortunately). Juozas and Maryona then continued their journey with baby Juozas - they were supposedly on their way to the U.S but family legend has it that Maryona was very seasick so they decided to stay in Scotland (cant find them on any passenger lists...). Juozas got a job in the pits and was re-named Joseph Green by the pit owners. Juozas and Maryona married at The Institute, Addiewell the year that they arrived in Scotland (1913 - I have seen the marriage certificate). The family lived in Stoneyburn and J & M went on to have more children, including Viktkorija Marie, who was born in 1917 - the year I believe Great-Grandpa was sent back to Russia.

On the question of lists of passengers coming in from Murmansk - Ancestry does have some (for Murmansk not Archangel) but I cant look at them without upgrading my membership. Does anyone on here have the Premium or Worldwide Membership?

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silvestris

Glad to see that the community of people interested in this is growing! I can check the Ancestry records at the Genealogy Society here in Edinburgh. Are you able to post a direct link to it?

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paullucas01

Hi, I checked ancestry - I have a month's membership for now. There are very limited records for Murmansk to the UK in 1919 and there are none of interest to us here.

Paul

I am interested in my great-uncle and how he managed to get from Archangel/Murmansk to Lithuania in those times. And I am searching for the 2 brothers of my great-aunt's husband. they were rumoured to have been killed in a battle for the railway line. My great-aunt and great-uncle were siblings - Lukosevicius and Lukoseviciute / Sabiaulauskas

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frances togneri

Dubs/Cat

I have heard about your family! My cousin used to teach in the Stoneyburn area and told me there are entire families they called the 'colour' families. The story is that a mine supervisor could not be bothered with the difficult names so he selected a few colours and allocated these as the men enlisted for work. I don't know if he has further information. If you haven't already seen it, do a search on Scottish Mining. They have a very good website. I have never noted the URL - I usually just search. I came acorss this document written by someone for university. He carried out his research in Russia, so it's a bit different from the links posted prevuiusly.

Wright, Alistair S. (2012) The establishment of Bolshevik power on the Russian periphery: Soviet Karelia, 1918-1919. There is a lot about food supply but interesting bits. Not an easy read though. theses.gla.ac.uk/3105/01/2011wrightphd.pdf

Keep us posted on the info your mother brings - It's amazing what can be the key to a new lead.

I think I tried searching Ancestry before, but I maybe wasn't very efficient because I am not used to the database. My local library has the worldwide version but you can only log in for one hour at a time.

I have some thoughts on the evacuation and will investigate.

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frances togneri

In case anyone is sad enough to want to know, I have listed the relevant allies on the ships leaving Archangel. I don't propose listing them but Lithuanians were shipped on two ships and totalled 94.

The Slavo-British Legion total is 1328 which is fairly close to the total number of men reported as joining the Legion in the spring of 1918 at Murmansk and Archangel, prior to the later addition of Bolshevik prisoners. Unfortunatley there is no way of knowing how many of the 1328 were deported from Scotland. Twenty three officers are included in this number but it can not be ascertained whether these are the Russian officers appointed by General Ironside to lead the Slavo-British Legion. They returned as follows:

Kildonan Castle (3.9.19) = 204

La Plata (11.9.19) = 53

Vedic (14.9.19) = 474

Ed Woermann (19.9.19) = 474also

Cassel (3.10.19) = 123

There were also a total of 448 Poles, 102 Russians and 101 Bolshevik prisoners plus a number of civillians.

From the date shown of Juozas Papilauskas' Aliens Certificate I suspect the he returned on the Cassel or possibly the Ed Woermann. If he and my grandfather managed to stick together, then I would hope to find Kazimeras and Juozas on the same ship.

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frances togneri

Re above - on a first search there do not appear to be relevant records at Kew on these particular ships.

Frances

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Roxy

What an excellent thread!

Good luck with your research.

Roxy

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dubs

Dubs/Cat

I have heard about your family! My cousin used to teach in the Stoneyburn area and told me there are entire families they called the 'colour' families. The story is that a mine supervisor could not be bothered with the difficult names so he selected a few colours and allocated these as the men enlisted for work. I don't know if he has further information. If you haven't already seen it, do a search on Scottish Mining.

Wow, that's amazing, thanks Frances. If your cousin remembers anything else at all about the Lithuanians of Stoneyburn, no matter how small, I would be interested to hear. Yes, the colours story is exactly what I heard too. I have looked at the Scottish Mining website and actually found a record of an accident which I am 99% certain is about Grandpa Zuirinskas (although the record said he died, which wasnt the case, he just didnt return to mining). I have actually tracked down some other Zurinskas (their spelling) people from the Stoneyburn/Bathgate area who I am sure must be related to me in some way - I have tried to make contact through Facebook, but havent heard anything back yet. I also tracked down an address for one of them through 192.com so my Mum is going to write a letter....I also found a post on the Internet from a Scottish man who used to be an altar boy for Father Gautuskas, the Lithuanian priest, who remembers the Zurinskas family - he is now in the US, and again, my Mum is going to write to him. I gave my Mum a copy of your Scotland's People article as soon as I read it - it was fascinating and got me onto this whole subject of Russia.

I am totally addicted to Geneaology, it is completely absorbing (and expensive!) - I shall continue to watch this thread with interest! By the way, did you only look at 1919 passenger lists? I have no idea when Grandpa Ziurinskas came back, but it may have been before then, I suppose...

Oops, sorry, I realize that it was Paul who checked Ancestry - same question to you, Paul...

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