frances togneri Posted 7 October , 2012 Share Posted 7 October , 2012 Information is so sparse I think you can only assume that the white army would be the first choice to join but this is not a certainty. After all, former Bolsheviks were content to join the Slavo-British Legion to get fed! As for going to America., for many Lithuanians this was their first choice of country and SCotland was only supposed to be a stopping point to raise more money to continue although some apparently believed they had reached America. The central belt of Scotland was not an attractive sight around 1900. My elderly relative was told by his father that one look at the mining communities was enough to convince him that, had he the money, he should return immediately to the port and return to Lithuania. In all good research, your sources should be as wide as possible, so ideally information should be sought in Russia. I have come across Canadian and American newspaper articles. They didn't answer my questions but are worth searching for. I don't know about Lithuania. My knowledge was very limited when I was in Vilnius so I couldn't ask the right questions. I agree that direct communication is the only way to move forward because we are all discovering different things and it is important to share what we know. The War Office records are great for background and especially the political questions but they can be heavy going. Family stories are a great place to start but the memory can be faulty and stories change in the telling unfortunately. Frances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 8 October , 2012 Share Posted 8 October , 2012 Silvestris Check out this account. It is written by a student at Helsinki University and uses Russian source material to balance the UK information. It is mainly about South Russia but there is some good stuff. British Intervention in South Russia 1918-1920 © Lauri Kopisto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullucas01 Posted 16 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2012 Hi, I know a Lithuanian history student who studied the Lithuanian-laguage newspapers published in Scotland for her thesis. She may be able to help. I cant speak or read Lithuanian. Also I live in the West of England so I can go to Kew if I know where to look. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 Paul It's always good to have contact with someone who may be able to help! How can she help me? I have just read back through your earlier posts and it appears your relatives did not stop at Archangel or Murmansk. Any idea why? The deportees must have left any time from July, when the Convention was put in place and there must have been several ships involved, some perhaps making more than one journey, until the government believed the men had all gone, whenever that was. One of the War Office records states there were 20000 Russians, many of them Jews, in London. What happened to them? Were most on the train to Omsk? Could my relatives have been separated in the baggage car incident and found their own way back to Archangel? My relatives left on 17 October 1917 which is later than the month they were given to comply. I think they found work in the area and so were in the spot to sign up when General Moore arrived to set up the Slavo-British Legion. General Ironside was disappointed that only 3000 Russians joined. He ordered the jails to be emptied and Bolshevik prisoners to be recruited. I think the maximum number of men was about 4000 and that would be shortly before the infamous mutiny in 'Dyer's' batallion. I have come across accounts that refer to the railway being used to get food to the villages between Petrograd and Murmansk (people were starving) and of course the Bolsheviks travelled on this line. The Bolshevik takeover seems to have been very slow and peaceful here. British Marines and some French soldiers helped the Bolsheviks in the Karelia region because the German-backed 'white' Finns were trying to invade. This puts a different light of some of the revolution stories! I am trying to find the reference for the Kew enquiry, so I will have to get back to you with that. Frances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullucas01 Posted 16 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2012 Frances, I don't know how my great-uncle ended up back in Lithuania, maybe he "deserted" from Archangel/Murmansk ? He became an officer in the Lithuanian Army and helped with the fight for independence in 1919-1920. He was a resourceful man as he accumulated a great deal of wealth in Scottish mines (in comparison to his fellow Lithuanians), and he was able to pay for his wife and daughter to travel by ship to join him about 1921 and in the 1930s he owned a car in Lithuania. It is rumoured that he was a very successful gambler. He was taken by the KGB in 1941 and in 1943 he was executed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullucas01 Posted 16 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2012 And very few of the Jewish population in London were conscripted. if they were, they were in the Royal Fusiliers or the Labour Corps (Russian Battalions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 Paul He probably didn't desert. Once it became obvious the war against Communism could go nowhere, the British pulled out. The armies from other countries involved left before the British and the fighting just gradually disipated. There are many accounts stating that the men did not understand what they were fighting for. It wasn't freedom - they could understand that. It was the fear of the spread of Communism! I have the impression from the documents I have seen that once all 'Russians' of service age were either in a British Army on the Western Front or had been deported the British Government had no further interest in them. Russia was an ally to it was up to the men and to the Russian Provisional Government to sort out matters once they left British soil. The problem was that the Provisional Government fell around the time the men were in transit and it took time for the Bolsheviks to assess their situation and form a new government. Therefore when the men landed at Murmansk or Archangel nothing was organised for them. Perhaps the earlier arrivals fared differently. Frances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 16 October , 2012 Share Posted 16 October , 2012 Paul - Forgot to say, your great-uncle sounds like a fantastic man! What a rotten end to his life. Frances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullucas01 Posted 16 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2012 Jonas Lukosevicius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullucas01 Posted 16 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2012 Antanas Lukosevicius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 17 October , 2012 Share Posted 17 October , 2012 Nice photos - thanks for sharing. Frances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 17 October , 2012 Share Posted 17 October , 2012 Paul Don't get too excited yet! The reference below MIGHT BE the document you have been asking about - ie the one containing the names of the men who were deported in 1917. I was quoted over £300 for a print. It is difficult to tell from the title but the size of the document and the length of time it has been closed indicate Data Protection isssues - possibly details of persons. It can not be viewed online. Please see attached the photo of my grandfather that started my search. Although the Imperial War Museum didn't volunteer the information, they agreed the uniform was that of the Slavo-British Legion once it was suggested to them. A cousin had the photo. The older child is her father (my uncle) born in Lithuania. The younger boy was born in Edinburgh. My mother is missing from the photo, but we think Kazimeras wanted a last picture with his sons. He left my grandmother because she had a child with another man while he was in Russia. Frances Reference:HO 144/13339 Description: ALIENS (see also Nationality and Naturalisation): Repatriation of Russian political refugees and deportation of undesirable Poles and Russians after the revolution of 1917 Date: 1917-1918 Held by: The National Archives, Kew Former references: in its original department: 332758/1-121 Legal status: Public Record Access conditions: Closed Until 2005 Record opening date: 23 September 2005 Copying Process No. of Units Unit Cost Process Cost PaperMonoA3 317 £1.00 £317.00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 17 October , 2012 Share Posted 17 October , 2012 Paul I hope this attaches this time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 17 October , 2012 Share Posted 17 October , 2012 Ha - Finally manged to work out how to attach a photo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullucas01 Posted 18 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Frances, thank you very much indeed ! Great photo ! Can I go to Kew to view the physical document (s) ? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 18 October , 2012 Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Paul As far as I am aware the document is free to view at Kew. If you have success and it is the document we hope, can you please look for Kazimeras and Juozas Papilauskas? Variations in documents are: Papiliskis, Papiluskis, Papilauckas, Papilaiskis. The name Paplauckas is a different family. I have not yet found a connection though there may be one in Lithuania. Frances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvestris Posted 18 October , 2012 Share Posted 18 October , 2012 This is great! Could you also look for Kazimiras Kisielius? Paul, he may well have known or traveled with your ancestors. He also ended up back in Lithuania (definitely by 1921, when my grandmother was born). I'd like to believe he helped fight for Lithuanian independence. Maybe the information at Kew will be the first step to tracing where he went and potentially confirming that he did. Attached is a photo of his son (also named Kazimiras) from about 1940 or 1941. He was born in Glasgow in 1918, almost exactly 9 months after when I believe Kazimiras Sr was deported! He was raised in Lithuania after the family was reunited. My grandmother remembers the day he was taken by the Russians during WWII. They received one letter after that, and he was never heard from again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvestris Posted 18 October , 2012 Share Posted 18 October , 2012 I just realized, the description of the records says they are of persons deported "after the revolution of 1917". Paul, aren't you interested in a list of people who were deported under the Anglo-Russian Military Convention? That would have been before the revolution (though only months before). For me, though, I'm not certain if Kazimiras Kisielius was deported under the military treaty or later, after the revolution, so either might contain helpful information. Frances, can you explain how you located these records? I'd be happy to search for others that could tell us about those deported under the treaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 18 October , 2012 Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Starting with what is known - The Anglo-Russian Military Convention 1917 led to their deportation. The War Cabinet papers of the time referred to Lithuanians as 'Russian Poles' Searched for 'Russian Poles' for year 1917. Above document reference resulted. Despite further searches, this is the closest reference to what we are all looking for. There is a similar named document for the later years. I can't say with 100% accuracy that this contains the names but it is all that has turned up so far that looks promising. It has something that caused it to be closed until 2005. This is usually to do with personal information (Data Protection). I don't know if the staff at Kew would oblige and check. I don't know how 'friendly' they are towards enquirers. Frances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 18 October , 2012 Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Silvestris - What a sad story! When you consider that only around 350 of the 1100 or so Lithuanian men who left Lanarkshire actually returned, this is a shocking part of British history. I am sure may wished to return and were unable to be reunited with their families. Frances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullucas01 Posted 18 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Hi, the lists of deportations may well refer to the women and children who were deported in 1920. These were the dependents of the men who had not returned. There 2,175 Lithuanians (Russians) eligible for military service, 700 joined the British Army and 1,100 "chose" deportation. Most were sent to Archangel and then via Moscow and Petrograd to Omsk in Siberia. Others ended in the Allied Interventionist Forces in Northern Russia. The Anglo-Russian Military Convention did not succeed in conscripting the Russian Jewish populations in the UK - for example over 8,000 avoided conscription in London alone. I have a week's holiday next week so I will most likely go to Kew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvestris Posted 18 October , 2012 Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Excellent, I look forward to hearing what you find. Considering that the records might mention the women and children in 1920, would you mind keeping an eye out for Zose (or "Sophie") Kisielius and her son Kazimiras Jr (the son of the elder Kazimiras who was presumably deported earlier under the treaty)? Her maiden name was Raulinitis, but she was definitely married at the time so should be using the name Kisielius. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frances togneri Posted 18 October , 2012 Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Paul the deportations of women and children are I think in a seperate archive and I include the reference below. These groups of people would be returned much later than the males who were sent out in 1917 - 1918. Enjoy your visit, if I lived nearer I would have been into these by now - but we are unlikely to be down there in the near future. Frances ALIENS (see also Nationality and Naturalisation): Repatriation of Russian political refugees and deportation of undesirable ... Home Office: Registered Papers, Supplementary. Nationality and Naturalisation. ALIENS (see also Nationality and Naturalisation): Repatriation of Russian political refugees and deportation of undesirable Poles and Russians after the revolution of 1917. . Collection: Records created or inherited by the Home Office, Ministry of Home Security, and related bodies Date range: 01 January 1919 - 31 December 1931 Reference:HO 144/13340 Subjects:Nationality, Refugees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullucas01 Posted 18 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Frances, thank you very much for the information, Paul Silvestris, I will have a good look for you, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paullucas01 Posted 18 October , 2012 Author Share Posted 18 October , 2012 Jonas Lukosevicius - KGB file photograph from 1941 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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