Postcards

[Muerrisch]

1 minute ago, Pat Atkins said:

Don't those two anecdotes get a mention in Goodbye To All That? Only say this because they both rang a bell. I did wonder about Old Soldiers Never Die but If it had been via Frank Richards' book(s), one - or both - of you would have known, of course.

Yes, I think you may well be correct. I will have a look. Much as I admire Graves's work, he is certainly not to be trusted as an authority!. 

Dr Dunn's copy of GTAT has many marginalia where he criticises RG's statements. One such reads "Balls". Graves never let the facts get in the way of a good tale.

[Pat Atkins]

Actually, I'd forgotten about Dunn, might they even originate from The War The Infantry Knew? Doesn't quite sound his style, though (as his margin annotations plainly show) he wasn't without a literary side... And yes, I enjoyed Graves's memoirs very much but you'd be naive to think them entirely factual!

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Don't those two anecdotes get a mention in Goodbye To All That? Only say this because they both rang a bell. I did wonder about Old Soldiers Never Die but If it had been via Frank Richards' book(s), one - or both - of you would have known, of course.

Robert Graves sounds very plausible Pat, but I no longer possess ‘Goodbye to all that’ and so cannot check.  I think I’d have remembered had it been in one of Frank Richards’s books.

Edited 28 February by FROGSMILE

[TomWW1]

Anyone know anything about this chap?

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, TomWW1 said:

Anyone know anything about this chap?

Haven’t you posted this image before Tom?

He is a driver of the Army Service Corps.

[gunnerwalker]

42504 Pte. Archibald Armstrong. 2nd Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment.

Wounded in April 1918 and discharged on 12th March 1919.

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

42504 Pte. Archibald Armstrong. 2nd Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment.

Wounded in April 1918 and discharged on 12th March 1919.

A fine portrait and he has the smart turnout of a professional regular soldier.

[gunnerwalker]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

A fine portrait and he has the smart turnout of a professional regular soldier.

Thanks. To me to boots look non-military issue?

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

Thanks. To me to boots look non-military issue?

Yes I agree, civilian shoes with a punch edged toe cap. Such shoes were not unusual in images of wounded soldiers not wearing puttees.

[GWF1967]

9 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I recall (away from my sources at the moment)  that 'Jones-Billy' was famous for his send-offs for the drafts from 3RWF.

"May God go with you .......I will go with you as far as the station"

At some point, it seems, he got on the train by mistake!

[gunnerwalker]

30199 Pte. George Henry Cousins. Photographed by E.E. Hindley at the Triangle, Teignmouth.

Born in 1898, he was the sixth of seven children to Thomas and Maria Cousins of 25 Bickford Lane, Teignmouth. One of his older brothers, Lionel, enlisted in the Royal Marine Artillery in January 1912.

He had been living in Bridgwater and enlisted in the Somerset Light Infantry at Chard. He served in France with the 1st Battalion, and was killed in action on the 30th August 1918, aged 20. He is buried in Eterpigny Military Cemetery.

[gunnerwalker]

810 2/Cpl. Ernest Sidney Alexander West. 

Born in the third quarter of 1892 in Lower Weston, Bath. Worked as an engine fitter for the Somerset and Dorset Railway. Enlisted in the 1st Wessex Territorials, Royal Engineers, in Bath on the 1st March 1910, aged 17 years and 6 months. Service number 411. He was discharged on the 28th February 1914 after his four year enlistment expired.

He was living at 4 Cranleigh Gardens, Bridgwater, when he re-enlisted some time later with the R.E. and served overseas from the 22nd December 1914 with the 71st Field Coy., 13th (Western) Division. Presumably while on leave, he married Margaret Chandler in Bristol in the third quarter of 1915.

He died of wounds on the 5th October 1916, aged 24, while serving in the Balkans and is buried at Lahana CGWC Cemetery, north-east of Salonika. His widow and child were awarded a pension in April 1917.

Edited 28 February by gunnerwalker

[FROGSMILE]

55 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

30199 Pte. George Henry Cousins. Photographed by E.E. Hindley at the Triangle, Teignmouth.

Born in 1898, he was the sixth of seven children to Thomas and Maria Cousins of 25 Bickford Lane, Teignmouth. One of his older brothers, Lionel, enlisted in the Royal Marine Artillery in January 1912.

He had been living in Bridgwater and enlisted in the Somerset Light Infantry at Chard. He served in France with the 1st Battalion, and was killed in action on the 30th August 1918, aged 20. He is buried in Eterpigny Military Cemetery.

This epitomises for me the sort of lower middle class man who would never have enlisted prewar.  He sits for a quality portrait photo that would have been unaffordable for a working class family man in 1914, and showing off his expensive wrist watch.  Dead at the age of 20, and the type of loss that his country could ill afford in terms of its chances of future prosperity.

Edited 28 February by FROGSMILE

[gunnerwalker]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

This epitomises for me the sort of lower middle class man who would never have enlisted prewar.  He sits for a quality portrait photo that would have been unaffordable for a working class family man, showing off his expensive wrist watch.  Dead at the age of 20 and the type of loss that his country could ill afford in terms of its chances of future prosperity.

Yes he looks to have a fairly meek demeanour in the photo; a bit daunted too perhaps - not surprising when considering he'd perhaps been conscripted at barely 18 or 19 years old. Probably not what he had planned for life. He almost made it through...

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, gunnerwalker said:

Yes he looks to have a fairly meek demeanour in the photo; a bit daunted too perhaps - not surprising when considering he'd perhaps been conscripted at barely 18 or 19 years old. Probably not what he had planned for life. He almost made it through...

Yes it was such a tragedy, especially for the middle classes, because they were generally the most healthy and so passed the medical in droves.  Men who before the war would never have joined the regular army. 

Edited 28 February by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes it was such a tragedy, especially for the middle classes, because they were generally the most healthy and so passed the medical in droves.  Men who before the war would never have joined the regular army. 

So being killed in action was less of a tragedy for the working class then?. I've heard it all now!!.      Pete.

[FROGSMILE]

On 27/02/2024 at 23:23, GWF1967 said:

W.N. Evans. 26th January 1917.  Royal Welsh Fusiliers. 

 Stuart.  - Photographer.  47-49 Brompton Rd. & 159 High Rd. Balham.

"Old Bill" - R.W.F. 

Family group. Both brothers wear R.W.F. shoulder titles.

 

 

Do you know if W N Evans survived the war?  He made it as far as January 1917, but there were still two terrible years including Paschendaele and Kaiserschlacht to go.

Edited 29 February by FROGSMILE

[George Rayner]

9 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

So being killed in action was less of a tragedy for the working class then?. I've heard it all now!!.

I don't think that is the thrust of what Frogsmile wrote

George

[tankengine888]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Do you know if W N Evans survived the war?  He made it as far as January 1917, but there were still two terrible years including Paschendaele and Kaiserschlacht to go.

There's a W N Evans (Law Student), aged 27 [born in Tonypandy] when he attested on Feb 25 1916 in Surrey. NoK is 142 Boundaries Road, Balham.
He served with the 18th Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers

I cannot find much else on him.

[FROGSMILE]

27 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

I don't think that is the thrust of what Frogsmile wrote

George

Indeed not George.  As I believe you will know Britains regular army as a proportion of its population has always been predominantly made up from the working classes.  That was reflected in comments made by Wellington about enlisting for drink and in lots of studies on the origins of recruits.  It is still the case today.  Conversely and  for the first time, WW1’s citizen army called to the colours by Kitchener, had a very high proportion from the middle classes, who in battles like the Somme 1916 and 3rd Ypres in 1917 suffered historically unprecedented levels of casualties.  The loss of men on such a scale was of course a tragedy for all, regardless of their background, and I was musing merely about the shifts in proportionality during WW1 and it’s causes.  I’m content that a majority will have understood what I was referring to.

Edited 29 February by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

There's a W N Evans (Law Student), aged 27 [born in Tonypandy] when he attested on Feb 25 1916 in Surrey. NoK is 142 Boundaries Road, Balham.
He served with the 18th Battalion Royal Welch Fusiliers

I cannot find much else on him.

Thank you tankengine888, that makes sense as from memory I think that 18th RWF was one of two battalions of so-called London Welsh recruited from those in the metropolis with Welsh connections, although not all who enlisted had such.

Edited 29 February by FROGSMILE

[tankengine888]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you tankengine888, that makes sense as I think 18th RWF was one of two battalions of so-called London Welsh recruited from those in the metropolis with Welsh connections.

Ah, interesting, thanks for that.

He was born 'William Naunton Evans' on August 9th, 1889 in... Ystradyfodwg

Oddly, there's an entry for a 2Lt William Naunton Evans of the MGC- same man I suppose?. The subaltern was wounded whilst with the 70th Battalion, MGC in 1918.

He became a solicitor after the war, married, had 3 children, Died January 4th, 1965 in Caerleon, Monmouthshire.

Zidane.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, tankengine888 said:

Ah, interesting, thanks for that.

He was born 'William Naunton Evans' on August 9th, 1889 in... Ystradyfodwg

Oddly, there's an entry for a 2Lt William Naunton Evans of the MGC- same man I suppose?. The subaltern was wounded whilst with the 70th Battalion, MGC in 1918.

He became a solicitor after the war, married, had 3 children, Died January 4th, 1965 in Caerleon, Monmouthshire.

Zidane.

I always find it interesting to learn of the fate of the young men who appear in the often high quality individual portrait photographs.  It’s pleasing to learn that he survived to gain a commission and survived the war.  A typical middle class enlistment of the type so common in Kitchener battalions.  The 18th had been the 2nd London Welsh and a reserve unit for the 1st. 

Edited 29 February by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

I am not at all sure that what we understand as "middle class" and "working class" in 2024 has much bearing, if any, on 1914. Not that I understand "class" anyway.

"The past is a different country"

And, from what I have seen in my career [almost continuously attached to the army and RAF] , and read and studied regarding the Great War, nothing is more different than the army itself. As an example, in 1913 it was almost impossible for a subaltern to survive on his pay

What I can add, without controversy, is that the army immediately post Boer War was becoming hugely different from Victorian times. In the early 1900s what used to be called "the virtuous working class" young men, and those with a skilled, continiously in paid work parent, often received rapid recognition by promotion in good regiments. Corporal in a couple of years, sergeant in five.. Such young men were the colour sergeants and sergeants of 1913 and were commissioned very soon after 4th August 1914. They played a significant part in weathering the storms of 1914/15 to fight another day. 

So how is "middle class" 1914 defined?

 

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

I am not at all sure that what we understand as "middle class" and "working class" in 2024 has much bearing, if any, on 1914. Not that I understand "class" anyway.

"The past is a different country"

And, from what I have seen in my career [almost continuously attached to the army and RAF] , and read and studied regarding the Great War, nothing is more different than the army itself. As an example, in 1913 it was almost impossible for a subaltern to survive on his pay

What I can add, without controversy, is that the army immediately post Boer War was becoming hugely different from Victorian times. In the early 1900s what used to be called "the virtuous working class" young men, and those with a skilled, continiously in paid work parent, often received rapid recognition by promotion in good regiments. Corporal in a couple of years, sergeant in five.. Such young men were the colour sergeants and sergeants of 1913 and were commissioned very soon after 4th August 1914. They played a significant part in weathering the storms of 1914/15 to fight another day. 

So how is "middle class" 1914 defined?

 

Apparently "Middle Class" is defined by sitting in a photographic studio wearing a watch.         Pete.