Postcards

[coldstreampaul]

Royal Engineers?

Could anyone give information on the white arm bands, do they signify wounds?

Many thanks

Paul

[trenchtrotter]

White over blue....signaller.

TT

[coldstreampaul]

White over blue....signaller.

TT

Many thanks TT

Paul

[Joe Sweeney]

Deatail of a postcard, might show Holy Grail, a CG worsted title.

I can show whole card if demand exists. It portrays an over-supervised group issuing food or drink.

We have a general in blue patrol, so probably not Active Service, probably Home.

The total picture shrieks 1914 1918 to me, neither earlier or later.

There is one white cap band present.

There is a sergeant, a CSgt, several other NCOs and the sergeant major, clearly Guards with the Large Badge.

Soldiers are NOT GG ..... no grenade with chevrons

Titles are light on dark [white on scarlet], with a lot of letters, so not SG IG or WG

No gilding metal badges on straps.

I venture to suggest CG, at Home, 1914 1918.

Will post whole card later on for comment please.

Grumpy interesting photo.

CG worsted titles 100% existed as they were pattern sealed around 1901.

Not sure if this is the holy grail but might just be. Can't seen anything that says wartime only. If you can make something out please post. It would be nice to see a simplified Jacket or SBR or something.

Worsted Titles weren't declared obsolete until 20 Nov 1907 and not until July 1908 were ordered removed.

It is clear that P08 had might have been issued (at least I see a Waterbottle slung over the shoulder, when this photo had been taken. So as far as I can see nothing that says not taken at least as early as 1908. Anyone know when P08 went to the Guards?

They were most definitely worn with fixed shoulder straps after those were introduced in 1904.

Is the Badge under the Title a Number (white on Red)? If so that would be IAW pre 1908 wear.

Here is some useless Trivia--The caps are all set-up in Guards fashion, but in this period did not include cutting the visor (post war apparently when the visor design was changed) instead every Soldier was issued a cap stiffener to raise the crown and give it that rising look. These were extra Regimental necessaries and first issues paid out of Regimental funds. Specifically for the CG they cost 6s 6d and could only be procured from Mr F. Narborough, 42, Lombard Street, Birmingham. CG Standing Orders 1914 with RO pasted to 1918. Unfortunetly the Standing Orders are silent on Insignia Drats!!!.

Joe Sweeney

[wainfleet]

White over blue....signaller.

TT

Correct if it were just the one armband; two of them makes him a dispatch rider.

[coldstreampaul]

Correct if it were just the one armband; two of them makes him a dispatch rider.

Many thanks for the extra info Wainfleet.

Paul

[trenchtrotter]

Always learning...thanks.

TT

[P.Rhodes]

These two are my mother's brothers, Percy (standing) and Harold Shimeld. Percy was in 1 Bn Northumberland Fusiliers and Harold was in 12 Bn (Sheffield City) York and Lancs. Percy was KIA between 22nd and 25th Aug 1918, Harold survived the war.

Peter

[max7474]

Percy was in the KOYLI at the time of the photo.

[P.Rhodes]

That's very interesting Max. I have a copy of his MIC and there is no mention of KOYLI. Could anyone shed any light as to why this is?

Peter

[max7474]

Only to say that he has without doubt got a KOYLI cap badge on in the photo.

This was the 1st Bn NF badge and it is clearly not that one.

[barrieduncan]

Peter, he may have been in the KOYLI before going overseas and later transferred to the NF with whom he entered a theatre of war. Service at home with the KOYLI wouldn't have entitled him to the campaign medals, so wouldn't appear on his MIC.

[Muerrisch]

Grumpy interesting photo.

CG worsted titles 100% existed as they were pattern sealed around 1901.

Not sure if this is the holy grail but might just be. Can't seen anything that says wartime only. If you can make something out please post. It would be nice to see a simplified Jacket or SBR or something.

Worsted Titles weren't declared obsolete until 20 Nov 1907 and not until July 1908 were ordered removed.

It is clear that P08 had might have been issued (at least I see a Waterbottle slung over the shoulder, when this photo had been taken. So as far as I can see nothing that says not taken at least as early as 1908. Anyone know when P08 went to the Guards?

They were most definitely worn with fixed shoulder straps after those were introduced in 1904.

Is the Badge under the Title a Number (white on Red)? If so that would be IAW pre 1908 wear.

Here is some useless Trivia--The caps are all set-up in Guards fashion, but in this period did not include cutting the visor (post war apparently when the visor design was changed) instead every Soldier was issued a cap stiffener to raise the crown and give it that rising look. These were extra Regimental necessaries and first issues paid out of Regimental funds. Specifically for the CG they cost 6s 6d and could only be procured from Mr F. Narborough, 42, Lombard Street, Birmingham. CG Standing Orders 1914 with RO pasted to 1918. Unfortunetly the Standing Orders are silent on Insignia Drats!!!.

Joe Sweeney

Joe, thank you for these detailed comments. I have looked and looked through a glass etc, but cannot find any hard evidence to give a date yet. As regards battalion number, the IWM are convinced numerals were scarlet on drab, which these/this are not.

I shall keep on with this current obsession!

[FROGSMILE]

Joe, thank you for these detailed comments. I have looked and looked through a glass etc, but cannot find any hard evidence to give a date yet. As regards battalion number, the IWM are convinced numerals were scarlet on drab, which these/this are not.

I shall keep on with this current obsession!

Very interesting, especially the details of how the caps were 'set up'. I agree that the badge below the title is not scarlet on khaki but I think it might well be white on red which could place the photo to 1907 (ish). could the water bottle be an 'Oliver' pattern one?

[Muerrisch]

Frogsmile & Joe:

I will do a high-res scan complete postcard and email to you for analysis. Under a glass, I THINK I see a simplified jacket.

Pity the map in the map case is beyond resolution.

I cannot prove it, but the photo says "Home" [a white cap band, a civvy onlooker, and a general in blues], but is suggestive of war time ....... CG are looking moderately tatty in so far as CG ever do.

[FROGSMILE]

Frogsmile & Joe:

I will do a high-res scan complete postcard and email to you for analysis. Under a glass, I THINK I see a simplified jacket.

Pity the map in the map case is beyond resolution.

I cannot prove it, but the photo says "Home" [a white cap band, a civvy onlooker, and a general in blues], but is suggestive of war time ....... CG are looking moderately tatty in so far as CG ever do.

I will do my best, but my x20 glass is in storage and I need to dig it out. I concur with all you have surmised so far and the only sticking point is the badge below the shoulder title, which all the men have on the right arm only. It appears to be round in shape and looks to be in the same colouring as the title itself. It would help to know what the pre-1908 battalion designator looked like! I agree it is definitely not red on khaki worsted.

[Joe Sweeney]

Grumpy,

Got the photo. Nice heavy mixture of Gilding Badges (All look CG) and worsted although not mixed on any individual man.

Don't see a simplified jacket.

Photo is frustrating as I can't see anything wartime.

I tend to think pre-war.

Joe Sweeney

[Muerrisch]

one of these three has a jacket looking a bit different ....

[wainfleet]

My belief is that all three are standard SD jackets. Rifle pads are visible on the r-hand man, and pleats on one of his top pockets. I also think pre-war, probably around 1910-1912 and taken in the UK. An 08 waterbottle was clearly visible in an earlier post, and the jackets have the typical pre-war big collar.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for the photo Grumpy,

It looks to me like a pre-war battalion field day. None of the men appear to be wearing an economy tunic, I can see shoulder patches clearly and the hint of pleats on upper pockets too.

The field officer (braided peak) to the right of the Sgt Maj with the Oliver patt water bottle looks to be the Colonel (CO) and to his left the Maj Gen (perhaps commanding London District) in blues. On the right appear to be 2 staff officers, probably employed as umpires (twin armbands), wearing overcoats. And there is, as you say, a white banded hat in the background.

I cannot see 08 webbing anywhere, but those are SMLEs in the background so it's post 1903. Each of the men with a right arm visible has a round badge below his shoulder title that looks to be white on red. It looks like lunch in the field as the men are crowded around a dixie container (not usually used for tea) and the men's mess tins (Slade Wallace pattern) are grouped in front, presumably ready to be filled, probably with stew, or pottage (very common in the field, then and now).

My assessment is that it's around 1907 +/- a year or two. I can see nothing that pins it to wartime.

[Muerrisch]

My sincere thanks for all the analysis ..... the panel has converged, I think, on c. 1908+/- a year or so.

Pity about that!

I have an appointment at IWM to pursue the CG S/T and other matters and will report back.

[wainfleet]

Thanks for the photo Grumpy,

It looks to me like a pre-war battalion field day. None of the men appear to be wearing an economy tunic, I can see shoulder patches clearly and the hint of pleats on upper pockets too.

The field officer (braided peak) to the right of the Sgt Maj with the Oliver patt water bottle looks to be the Colonel (CO) and to his left the Maj Gen (perhaps commanding London District) in blues. On the right appear to be 2 staff officers, probably employed as umpires (twin armbands), wearing overcoats. And there is, as you say, a white banded hat in the background.

I cannot see 08 webbing anywhere, but those are SMLEs in the background so it's post 1903. Each of the men with a right arm visible has a round badge below his shoulder title that looks to be white on red. It looks like lunch in the field as the men are crowded around a dixie container (not usually used for tea) and the men's mess tins (Slade Wallace pattern) are grouped in front, presumably ready to be filled, probably with stew, or pottage (very common in the field, then and now).

My assessment is that it's around 1907 +/- a year or two. I can see nothing that pins it to wartime.

Slade-Wallace messtins? The late Victorian infantry messtin was near-identical to that in WW1, the only differences being an internal tray and four rather than two small brass Ds on the outside. I can't see that level of detail in the picture. The badge below the shoulder title is likely to be the battalion number in a square.

An 08 bottle is clearly visible in post 992 - the brass Ds of the equipment are unmistakeable. The photo thus cannot be 1907 but might just be 1908, more likely a year or so after that and any time up to 1914. Battalion field day seems a reasonable guess. Agreed that nothing suggests wartime.

[Muerrisch]

Anyway ............

super photo, hours of endless fun for all the GWF family!

[trenchtrotter]

Nice discussion gents and nice to see one image has sparked such debate. Part of what I hoped would happen.

Anyone got some images to post.

I have a few and some e mailed to me to post soon.

TT

[Grovetown]

A cracking photo John, I agree. I have never seen a London Regt cloth title before, especially on an economy/utility pattern tunic, and he has had it tailiored too, which with his well 'set up' SD cap gives him a very smart appearance indeed.

Herewith a couple of examples - including one on the Simplfied SD. All men are wearing the red-on-serge of the QWR. This is followed by an original example on a July 1918-ish SD of the 2/16th.

The third image shows the black-on-serge of the QVR, plus a couple of originals. Why the differing sizes I don't know - perhaps the top one is for greatcoats.

Cheers,

GT.