Postcards

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, apt50 said:

Thank you for your reply. I am delighted by your second sentence, as I had thought he would be in one of the drafts you mention. For once I did not get it wrong!

Now I need to work out the likely circumstances of the Bangalore photograph, in the light of your observations on the men in it.

It’s almost certainly his lance corporals within his platoon within his company.
There were usually 8 to 10 men in an infantry section depending upon the strength and role of the battalion.  There were four sections in a platoon (numbered formally 1 to 4), four platoons in a service company (numbered consecutively from 1 to 16 within the battalion as a whole) and four service companies (after summer 1915) in an infantry battalion (these can be lettered ABCD, WXYZ, or sometimes numbered).  Usually the section was commanded by a full corporal with a lance corporal as his second.  A soldier’s full address might read something like:

Pte Smith. R, 2 Section, 16 Platoon, D Company, 1st Bn OBLI, Marlborough Lines, Aldershot, Hants. 

 

 

Edited 16 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

22 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s almost certainly his lance corporals within his platoon within his company.
There were usually 8 to 10 men in an infantry section depending upon the strength and role of the battalion.  There were four sections in a platoon (numbered formally 1 to 4), four platoons in a service company (numbered consecutively from 1 to 16 within the battalion as a whole) and four service companies (after summer 1915) in an infantry battalion (these can be lettered ABCD, WXYZ, or sometimes numbered).  Usually the section was commanded by a full corporal with a lance corporal as his second.  A soldier’s full address might read something like:

Pte Smith. R, 2 Section, 16 Platoon, D Company, 1st Bn OBLI, Marlborough Lines, Aldershot, Hants. 

 

 

Thank you for your informative reply. I make it five lance corporals to three privates, an interesting group for a photograph.

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, apt50 said:

Thank you for your informative reply. I make it five lance corporals to three privates, an interesting group for a photograph.

Yes, well spotted I missed the fifth one.  I suspect it might be a class of instruction then (often called a training ‘cadre’ instead of a class).  For low level skills these were run internally within battalions at that time with much less opportunity to send rank and file away to centralised schools, especially in areas where transportation networks were poor. 

Edited 16 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, well spotted I missed the fifth one.  I suspect it might be a class of instruction then (often called a training ‘cadre’ instead of a class).  For low level skills these were run internally within battalions at that time with much less opportunity to send rank and file away to centralised schools, especially in areas where transportation networks were poor. 

Thank you. I'll try not to wear out my welcome, but  I wonder if your suspicion might suggest a 1916 date for the photograph? On transfer to the O&BLI, would there have been a physical transfer to a O&BLI reserve/training battalion and would kitting out have taken place then? I can envisage a need to look out old stocks of equipment with an entire battalion to replace. Thus the flashes on the helmets might be more likely in 1916 than 1918 (to my mind the most probable other date). In any case would it be right to assume a draft going out via India might be 'sitting' there for a while, waiting for the' next boat to Basra' - giving an opportunity for classes of instruction? Or as usual, am I totally up the creek?

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, apt50 said:

Thank you. I'll try not to wear out my welcome, but  I wonder if your suspicion might suggest a 1916 date for the photograph? On transfer to the O&BLI, would there have been a physical transfer to a O&BLI reserve/training battalion and would kitting out have taken place then? I can envisage a need to look out old stocks of equipment with an entire battalion to replace. Thus the flashes on the helmets might be more likely in 1916 than 1918 (to my mind the most probable other date). In any case would it be right to assume a draft going out via India might be 'sitting' there for a while, waiting for the' next boat to Basra' - giving an opportunity for classes of instruction? Or as usual, am I totally up the creek?

I am glad to help where I can and do understand how difficult it can be to understand some of the arcane aspects of British Army organisation.  Without your soldier’s service record it’s impossible to be precise about his movements although one can sometimes make intelligent assessments using the near number technique where surviving records of men with serials numbers in the same series can be assessed.  A number of forum members are expert at this, an area that I do not dabble in. @kenf48and @PRCare especially good at the technique, but there are others.  You will need to provide his regimental serial number(s) if you know it(them).

Clearly your soldier was in the KRRC initially, and as he wears an emergency pattern simplified service dress jacket (no upper pocket pleats or shoulder reinforcement), we can assume he was probably serving with that regiment no later than between autumn 1915 and spring 1916.  Looking at his youthfulness I suspect that he was with a numbered KRRC Reserve battalion before the centralised Training Reserve was formed to focus the reserve training effort more efficiently.  This all chimes with the standing portrait photo being taken while he was undergoing training and the seated photo at his home would have been taken whilst he was on ‘embarkation leave’, something that soldiers invariably received before embarking for a theatre of war.

Once trained he would have been sent in a draft of reinforcements to one of the various theatres of war at the time. On arrival there he would have stopped initially at an infantry base depot (IBD) where in-theatre processing took place, including any climatic and special equipment training necessary to survive there.  From there soldiers would be sent to battalions in need of men regardless of their original cap badge.  In the case of your man it’s clear that significantly larger drafts than usual that were originally destined for a range of different regiments, were instead sent to Wadi to reestablish almost from scratch the 1st Bn OBLI, whose entire fighting echelon had been killed or captured.  The new battalion would have been formed around a OBLI cadre of original men from the base details and a small, rear echelon not at Kut Al Amara when it capitulated.  

The photo mentioning Bangalore intrigues me as 1st OBLI had last been in India in 1912, at Ahmadnagar, and I cannot see that any part of them would still have been in India in 1916.  The battalion was reformed in the MEF theatre (at Wadi) and then remained in Mesopotamia until it was sent to North Russia in May 1919.  This suggests that all of your photos of OBLI soldiers in khaki drill with Wolseley helmets relate not to India, but to Mesopotamia.

Edited 17 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[kenf48]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

A number of forum members are expert at this, an area that I do not dabble in. @kenf48and @PRCare especially good at the technique, but there are others.  You will need to provide his regimental serial number(s) if you know it(them).

Unfortunately @apt50has declined to do so on a previous post which has now been hidden!

Thank you for the acknowledgement, we might be good but we're not mind readers. (Though I sometimes wonder about Peter)

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The photo mentioning Bangalore intrigues me as 1st OBLI had last been in India in 1912, at Ahmadnagar, and I cannot see that any part of them would still have been in India in 1916.

Drafts for the MEF were sent initially to India, the equivalent if you like of the IBD in F & F, and then the usual route to Mesopotamia was Bombay to Basrah and then up country.  

The KRRC Chronicle '24th (Reserve) Battalion April 1916 to August 1916" notes on the 10th July the strength was 1271, on that date they commenced sending drafts overseas after detailing drafts to F & F it is noted;-

"On the 23rd August a draft of 50 proceeded to Cosham to join the 3rd Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry for the purpose of being fitted out previous to proceeding overseas to Mesopotamia."

The24th  Battalion was disbanded on the 1st September on the formation of the Training Reserve as you have previously noted.  On disbandment it was noted, "The men were an extremely fine lot, physically, and had come on well with their training..."

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Unfortunately @apt50has declined to do so on a previous post which has now been hidden!

Thank you for the acknowledgement, we might be good but we're not mind readers. (Though I sometimes wonder about Peter)

Drafts for the MEF were sent initially to India, the equivalent if you like of the IBD in F & F, and then the usual route to Mesopotamia was Bombay to Basrah and then up country.  

The KRRC Chronicle '24th (Reserve) Battalion April 1916 to August 1916" notes on the 10th July the strength was 1271, on that date they commenced sending drafts overseas after detailing drafts to F & F it is noted;-

"On the 23rd August a draft of 50 proceeded to Cosham to join the 3rd Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry for the purpose of being fitted out previous to proceeding overseas to Mesopotamia."

The24th  Battalion was disbanded on the 1st September on the formation of the Training Reserve as you have previously noted.  On disbandment it was noted, "The men were an extremely fine lot, physically, and had come on well with their training..."

Thank you Ken, I’d gathered that Basrah and Baghdad were the focal points once in country, but did not know that India was the initial staging and training post.  It seems likely then, short of any regimental serial number to track matters, that apt50’s subject for research was probably in the 24th KRRC before embarking for the MEF.

[apt50]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I am glad to help where I can and do understand how difficult it can be to understand some of the arcane aspects of British Army organisation.  Without your soldier’s service record it’s impossible to be precise about his movements although one can sometimes make intelligent assessments using the near number technique where surviving records of men with serials numbers in the same series can be assessed.  A number of forum members are expert at this, an area that I do not dabble in. @kenf48and @PRCare especially good at the technique, but there are others.  You will need to provide his regimental serial number(s) if you know it(them).

Clearly your soldier was in the KRRC initially, and as he wears an emergency pattern simplified service dress jacket (no upper pocket pleats or shoulder reinforcement), we can assume he was probably serving with that regiment no later than between autumn 1915 and spring 1916.  Looking at his youthfulness I suspect that he was with a numbered KRRC Reserve battalion before the centralised Training Reserve was formed to focus the reserve training effort more efficiently.  This all chimes with the standing portrait photo being taken while he was undergoing training and the seated photo at his home would have been taken whilst he was on ‘embarkation leave’, something that soldiers invariably received before embarking for a theatre of war.

Once trained he would have been sent in a draft of reinforcements to one of the various theatres of war at the time. On arrival there he would have stopped initially at an infantry base depot (IBD) where in-theatre processing took place, including any climatic and special equipment training necessary to survive there.  From there soldiers would be sent to battalions in need of men regardless of their original cap badge.  In the case of your man it’s clear that significantly larger drafts than usual that were originally destined for a range of different regiments, were instead sent to Wadi to reestablish almost from scratch the 1st Bn OBLI, whose entire fighting echelon had been killed or captured.  The new battalion would have been formed around a OBLI cadre of original men from the base details and a small, rear echelon not at Kut Al Amara when it capitulated.  

The photo mentioning Bangalore intrigues me as 1st OBLI had last been in India in 1912, at Ahmadnagar, and I cannot see that any part of them would still have been in India in 1916.  The battalion was reformed in the MEF theatre (at Wadi) and then remained in Mesopotamia until it was sent to North Russia in May 1919.  This suggests that all of your photos of OBLI soldiers in khaki drill with Wolseley helmets relate not to India, but to Mesopotamia.

Thank you for your reply. I have seen KenF48's post and realise that he must have looked at my original post, which was basically seeking information about the procedures of drafts to the OxBLI in Mesopotamia. The one member who replied initially asked for the name of my family member. I replied that I felt unable to do so without the agreement of some family members, which I am in the process of sorting out - but it will be a slow process. I was told good luck, but without a name any replies would be speculation. My post on this thread was about the group photograph. The far from speculative comments on it, have proved no name was needed for that aspect of my first post! On further consideration, I had realised the value of  a name and particularly a number in using what you describe as the near number technique. So I have been giving it a try myself. If anyone could be bothered enough to duplicate my efforts with the numbers that produced some results for me, they would probably come up with the name of my relative among others but I'm happy with that. Thus -  I have found three men, originally with the KRR. John Fitzmaurice (Darlaston)  OxBLI number 23587, KRR R/16783, Charles Ernest Robinson, joined King's Royal Rifles on enlistment at Southwark Town Hall 16th December 1915, R/17920, transferred to OxBLI 23601. Both embarked Devonport 24.2.1916, disembarked Karachi 14.6.16, embarked Karachi 19.6.16, disembarked Basra 24.6.16. Both are next described as with unit in field 28.1.17, with the remark 'Census' .I presume (I know I shouldn't) they were probably with the unit well before that date.

I have not gone through the papers in any detail and needless to say am no expert on them. So the above is E&OE.

The third set of service papers I have found are for Frederick George Knight. He enlisted Camberwell 29th November 1915, KRR R/17853, laterOxBLI 23594. There is a reference to 5th Battalion KRR.  There are dates for his service - KRR,20.1.16 to 12.5.16, then Ind Ex Force 25.5.16 to 7.9.16, India 8.8.16 to 26,5,17, than Ex Force Mespot 27,5,17 to 18.12.18. There are then details of service in Salonika Force and Egyptian Ex Force. He embarked Bombay 28.5.17 and disembarked Basra 4,6,17.

I think for my purposes the first two sets of service papers are most likely to be relevant particularly given that the information for my relative was that he was sent to India in May 1916. This perhaps goes someway to answering some of what I raised in my first post, but does not help with explaining where Bangalore comes in! The group of lance corporals and privates is printed on a post card, on the back of which, in the square for the stamp, the details previously give of the regimental photographer of Bangalore are printed. On the inscribed studio portrait, I have to accept that the place and date may not be accurate, as I do not know when the inscription was written and doubt if I can find out who wrote it. There is mention of leave in India in the service papers mentioned above, but how far would people on leave be able to go around India? I am also trying to find anyone who can confirm my failing memories of being told that my relative was in India for a time at the end of the war so perhaps extending the possible dates of photographs to 1919.

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

Unfortunately @apt50has declined to do so on a previous post which has now been hidden!

Thank you for the acknowledgement, we might be good but we're not mind readers. (Though I sometimes wonder about Peter)

Drafts for the MEF were sent initially to India, the equivalent if you like of the IBD in F & F, and then the usual route to Mesopotamia was Bombay to Basrah and then up country.  

The KRRC Chronicle '24th (Reserve) Battalion April 1916 to August 1916" notes on the 10th July the strength was 1271, on that date they commenced sending drafts overseas after detailing drafts to F & F it is noted;-

"On the 23rd August a draft of 50 proceeded to Cosham to join the 3rd Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry for the purpose of being fitted out previous to proceeding overseas to Mesopotamia."

The24th  Battalion was disbanded on the 1st September on the formation of the Training Reserve as you have previously noted.  On disbandment it was noted, "The men were an extremely fine lot, physically, and had come on well with their training..."

Thank you for the information as to how the drafts reached Mesopotamia.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, apt50 said:

Thank you for your reply. I have seen KenF48's post and realise that he must have looked at my original post, which was basically seeking information about the procedures of drafts to the OxBLI in Mesopotamia. The one member who replied initially asked for the name of my family member. I replied that I felt unable to do so without the agreement of some family members, which I am in the process of sorting out - but it will be a slow process. I was told good luck, but without a name any replies would be speculation. My post on this thread was about the group photograph. The far from speculative comments on it, have proved no name was needed for that aspect of my first post! On further consideration, I had realised the value of  a name and particularly a number in using what you describe as the near number technique. So I have been giving it a try myself. If anyone could be bothered enough to duplicate my efforts with the numbers that produced some results for me, they would probably come up with the name of my relative among others but I'm happy with that. Thus -  I have found three men, originally with the KRR. John Fitzmaurice (Darlaston)  OxBLI number 23587, KRR R/16783, Charles Ernest Robinson, joined King's Royal Rifles on enlistment at Southwark Town Hall 16th December 1915, R/17920, transferred to OxBLI 23601. Both embarked Devonport 24.2.1916, disembarked Karachi 14.6.16, embarked Karachi 19.6.16, disembarked Basra 24.6.16. Both are next described as with unit in field 28.1.17, with the remark 'Census' .I presume (I know I shouldn't) they were probably with the unit well before that date.

I have not gone through the papers in any detail and needless to say am no expert on them. So the above is E&OE.

The third set of service papers I have found are for Frederick George Knight. He enlisted Camberwell 29th November 1915, KRR R/17853, laterOxBLI 23594. There is a reference to 5th Battalion KRR.  There are dates for his service - KRR,20.1.16 to 12.5.16, then Ind Ex Force 25.5.16 to 7.9.16, India 8.8.16 to 26,5,17, than Ex Force Mespot 27,5,17 to 18.12.18. There are then details of service in Salonika Force and Egyptian Ex Force. He embarked Bombay 28.5.17 and disembarked Basra 4,6,17.

I think for my purposes the first two sets of service papers are most likely to be relevant particularly given that the information for my relative was that he was sent to India in May 1916. This perhaps goes someway to answering some of what I raised in my first post, but does not help with explaining where Bangalore comes in! The group of lance corporals and privates is printed on a post card, on the back of which, in the square for the stamp, the details previously give of the regimental photographer of Bangalore are printed. On the inscribed studio portrait, I have to accept that the place and date may not be accurate, as I do not know when the inscription was written and doubt if I can find out who wrote it. There is mention of leave in India in the service papers mentioned above, but how far would people on leave be able to go around India? I am also trying to find anyone who can confirm my failing memories of being told that my relative was in India for a time at the end of the war so perhaps extending the possible dates of photographs to 1919.

Just two comments I can make.  First the 5th Battalion was a Reserve unit that existed in peacetime as well as in war and (along with the 6th) was responsible for providing drafts of reinforcements for the four regular battalions of the KRRC (compared with OBLI which had just two).  It would essentially have carried out the same routine function as 24th Battalion.  Secondly I do not know for sure but suspect that Bangalore, which was a larger Indian garrison with good infrastructure, might well have been the staging post where the equivalent of the infantry base depot for the MEF was located.  It would then have sent drafts of reinforcements (battle casualty replacements) to Basra by sea.  It might well have carried out a similar function in reverse (staging post) in 1919.

Edited 17 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Just two comments I can make.  First the 5th Battalion was a Reserve unit that existed in peacetime as well as in war and was responsible for providing drafts of reinforcements for the four regular battalions of the KRRC (compared with OBLI which had just two).  It would essentially have carried out the same routine function as 24th Battalion.  Secondly I do not know for sure but suspect that Bangalore, which was a larger Indian garrison with good infrastructure, might well have been the staging post where the equivalent of the infantry base depot for the MEF was located.  It would then have sent drafts of reinforcements (battle casualty replacements) to Basra by sea.  It might well have carried out a similar function in reverse (staging post) in 1919.

Thank you for your comments. You have reminded me that while 'researching' for my original query, I noted from the War Diaries mentions of drafts in the last quarter of 1916. On 5.5.16 a draft of 55 NCOs and men including 28 serving soldiers from 2/DLI joined, "(Nowshera). On 29.9.16 a draft of 66 OR joined from Depot inc 44 NCOs and men of the 43rd. On Oct 6 2/Lt J R Brown plus 105 OR joined from 3rd Batt. Draft from various regiments  and had average service of 3 months. On 11th October 2K/t HW Bleeze and 150 OR - remainder of draft joined on Oct 6 (from England). Nov 6 Draft of 2 officers and 61 ORB (lt looks like a B to me, but not really sure) joined from Bangalore. The last draft is the relevant one here of course. At the time i wondered if some drafts came direct from England and some via India. Thanks to KenF48 I know all came via India. I now wonder if the distinction is between drafts from the Regiment and other drafts. Bangalore would seem to be a source of drafts.

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, apt50 said:

Bangalore would seem to be a source of drafts.

Bangalore was the biggest British Military cantonment in India. You will note Pte Spencer's record shows 'leave in India' 28.5.1918. This leave would have been taken around the British Military Establishments.  I can't find any details on the GWF, but this book Diary of an Old Contemptible apparently has a section on 'leave parties in Bangalore.  I dare say 'reporting sick' may have taken the shine off his stay!

Incidentally, to be pedantic (or accurate) Spencer's enlistment was an attestation under the Group or Derby Scheme in December 1915 and called up in his group around January 1916 hen he was posted to the KRRC.

Incidentally (2) I've no idea why the first thread was hidden this one is going off topic for 'Postcards' and more service history.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, apt50 said:

Thank you for your comments. You have reminded me that while 'researching' for my original query, I noted from the War Diaries mentions of drafts in the last quarter of 1916. On 5.5.16 a draft of 55 NCOs and men including 28 serving soldiers from 2/DLI joined, "(Nowshera). On 29.9.16 a draft of 66 OR joined from Depot inc 44 NCOs and men of the 43rd. On Oct 6 2/Lt J R Brown plus 105 OR joined from 3rd Batt. Draft from various regiments  and had average service of 3 months. On 11th October 2K/t HW Bleeze and 150 OR - remainder of draft joined on Oct 6 (from England). Nov 6 Draft of 2 officers and 61 ORB (lt looks like a B to me, but not really sure) joined from Bangalore. The last draft is the relevant one here of course. At the time i wondered if some drafts came direct from England and some via India. Thanks to KenF48 I know all came via India. I now wonder if the distinction is between drafts from the Regiment and other drafts. Bangalore would seem to be a source of drafts.

What you recount is entirely typical of the way that the British Army managed its churn of men departing (KIA or wounded/sick) and arriving (drafts of reinforcements from a range of sources and post sick returnees from hospital).  This was a perpetual soup that the adjutant and his administrative staff were dealing with on a day-to-day basis.  It was never ending.  The diary entries of recording these drafts can be found for every battalion where the documentation has survived.  The B in the ORB that you referred to is almost certainly a cursive script S of joined up style that indicates Other Rank(s) in the plural.  The draft using the number 43 as in 43rd indicates men from the 1st Bn OBLI, as I explained in an earlier post.  More senior precedence regiments within the first 25 regiments of the line would simply say ‘from the 1st Battalion’, but regiments with more than one precedence number would find some protocol to describe themselves, a good example being the Cameronian’s (old 26th) and Scottish Rifles (old 90th) who would refer to themselves as such despite being 1st and 2nd Battalions of the same regiment.  That sense of continuity and identity internally was seen as all important.  This methodology goes back a long way and a battalion in, e.g. the Crimean war, recorded its drafts of reinforcements in much the same way, with some men from its regimental depot, some from its other regular battalion, some from other regiments entirely (similar to your DLI draft) and some from the Militia.  The staging post was in Malta and operated in the same way as Bangalore in your case. 

Edited 17 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

Bangalore was the biggest British Military cantonment in India. You will note Pte Spencer's record shows 'leave in India' 28.5.1918. This leave would have been taken around the British Military Establishments.  I can't find any details on the GWF, but this book Diary of an Old Contemptible apparently has a section on 'leave parties in Bangalore.  I dare say 'reporting sick' may have taken the shine off his stay!

Incidentally, to be pedantic (or accurate) Spencer's enlistment was an attestation under the Group or Derby Scheme in December 1915 and called up in his group around January 1916 hen he was posted to the KRRC.

Incidentally (2) I've no idea why the first thread was hidden this one is going off topic for 'Postcards' and more service history.

 

 

Thank you for this. I agree that this is going off topic and somewhat to my surprise I have received much information relevant to my original post as well as this, which was more on the topic (although the photograph turned out to be 'off forum'). I will retire to digest what I have learned, and perhaps dare to hope that in the future someone may have some !st Battalion OxBLI postcards to post. I always welcome accuracy and have no objections to being put right on matters.

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

What you recount is entirely typical of the way that the British Army managed its churn of men departing (KIA or wounded/sick) and arriving (drafts of reinforcements from a range of sources and post sick returnees from hospital).  This was a perpetual soup that the adjutant and his administrative staff were dealing with on a day-to-day basis.  It was never ending.  The diary entries of recording these drafts can be found for every battalion where the documentation has survived.  The B in the ORB that you referred to is almost certainly a cursive script S of joined up style that indicates Other Rank(s) in the plural.  The draft using the number 43 as in 43rd indicates men from the 1st Bn OBLI, as I explained in an earlier post.  More senior precedence regiments within the first 25 regiments of the line would simply say ‘from the 1st Battalion’, but regiments with more than one precedence number would find some protocol to describe themselves, a good example being the Cameronian’s (old 26th) and Scottish Rifles (old 90th) who would refer to themselves as such despite being 1st and 2nd Battalions of the same regiment.  That sense of continuity and identity internally was seen as all important.  This methodology goes back a long way and a battalion in, e.g. the Crimean war, recorded its drafts of reinforcements in much the same way, with some men from its regimental depot, some from its other regular battalion, some from other regiments entirely (similar to your DLI draft) and some from the Militia.  The staging post was in Malta and operated in the same way as Bangalore in your case. 

Many thank for this and your earlier posts, leaving me much better informed.

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, apt50 said:

Thank you for this. I agree that this is going off topic and somewhat to my surprise I have received much information relevant to my original post as well as this, which was more on the topic (although the photograph turned out to be 'off forum'). I will retire to digest what I have learned, and perhaps dare to hope that in the future someone may have some !st Battalion OxBLI postcards to post. I always welcome accuracy and have no objections to being put right on matters.

Many thank for this and your earlier posts, leaving me much better informed.

I’m glad to have been of some assistance and would wish to assure you that there’s no doubt, whatsoever, that the first group photo that you posted dates from the 1930s, but all others from WW1.  There is so much visual evidence that it’s indisputable.

Edited 17 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[themonsstar]

I bought the card back in the early 1980s from one of the militaria dealers in the Corn Exchange Manchester. 

[RedCoat]

This ones got a pretty interesting story behind it - not that I know it. But any image that shows a scout wearing an MM has to!

 

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, themonsstar said:

I bought the card back in the early 1980s from one of the militaria dealers in the Corn Exchange Manchester. 

Very odd indeed!  All appear to be members of military bands, but I don’t think that they’re regulars and they have very mixed uniforms. The two on the right appear to have round forage caps worn by officers and staff sergeants of the Royal Scots and the near most fellow has a doublet as the Inverness flaps are just about visible.  The pouch belts are correct and suspend music cases in the centre of the back.  There are no collar badges though, nor does there appear to be much piping, and there are old fashioned slashed cuffs of a kind only used by the Guards.  The waistbelts with snake clasp are of the type used by rifle volunteers.  The lone fellow on the left wears a Guards officers frock coat, pouch belt and round forage cap with an odd badge reminiscent of the crossed axes worn by an Indian Army pioneer regiment.  Perhaps it’s a theatrical outfit from a concert of some kind.  I’d be interested to learn @TullochArd and @Ron Abbott opinions.

13 hours ago, RedCoat said:

This ones got a pretty interesting story behind it - not that I know it. But any image that shows a scout wearing an MM has to!

A young looking regular from the Northamptonshire Regiment.

Edited 24 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Alan24]

4 hours ago, RedCoat said:

This ones got a pretty interesting story behind it - not that I know it. But any image that shows a scout wearing an MM has to!

 

Brilliant postcard.

With the award authorised in March 1916, I'd assume that the earliest this photo could be would be 4th quarter 1916.

He must be on home leave as he looks to have been issued with a fresh uniform including stiff cap which must have been on the way out by the end of 1916. I'm sure someone can expand on that.

If this is an early example of the MM, it could well be for an action on the Somme. 

As you say, RC, must be a fascinating story here, if only he could be identified.

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

Brilliant postcard.

With the award authorised in March 1916, I'd assume that the earliest this photo could be would be 4th quarter 1916.

He must be on home leave as he looks to have been issued with a fresh uniform including stiff cap which must have been on the way out by the end of 1916. I'm sure someone can expand on that.

If this is an early example of the MM, it could well be for an action on the Somme. 

As you say, RC, must be a fascinating story here, if only he could be identified.

I agree that the uniform and cap seem pristine and I suspect they were probably issued to him by the regimental depot specifically for the medal presentation.  The photo has the typical look of publicity photos taken shortly after the medal has been awarded.  It’s noticeable in other, similar images, of presentations at home (as opposed to in the field) that the uniforms always seem to look squeaky clean immaculate.

Edited 24 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Alan24]

1 minute ago, FROGSMILE said:

The photo has the typical look of publicity photos taken shortly after the medal has been awarded. 

In which case there maybe a copy of the photo in one of the Northamptonshire papers. 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Alan24 said:

In which case there maybe a copy of the photo in one of the Northamptonshire papers. 

Yes quite possibly.  I recall that the Northampton Library Service had a specific album of photos presented by the old regimental museum (now closed) that they posted in their Flickr Account.  I wonder if it might be there too.

Edited 24 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

I like the Musicians RPPC,  thanks for posting! 2 Trombone players & 1 Cornet player. What is amazing to me (as a Brass musician) is how they manged to play with those flat rim mouthpieces. I have a near 100 yr old Cornet with one of those mouthpieces  & its very difficult to get good clear notes in tune, especially in the upper register!

[gordon92]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Very odd indeed!  All appear to be members of military bands, but I don’t think that they’re regulars and they have very mixed uniforms. The two on the right appear to have round forage caps worn by officers and staff sergeants of the Royal Scots and the near most fellow has a doublet as the Inverness flaps are just about visible.  The pouch belts are correct and suspend music cases in the centre of the back.  There are no collar badges though, nor does there appear to be much piping, and there are old fashioned slashed cuffs of a kind only used by the Guards.  The waistbelts with snake clasp are of the type used by rifle volunteers.  The lone fellow on the left wears a Guards officers frock coat, pouch belt and round forage cap with an odd badge reminiscent of the crossed axes worn by an Indian Army pioneer regiment.  Perhaps it’s a theatrical outfit from a concert of some kind.  I’d be interested to learn @TullochArd and @Ron Abbott opinions.

A young looking regular from the Northamptonshire Regiment.

Probably not regulars as you have said. Cap badges from regular regiments that come to mind which would fit include the 1st, 74th, and 91st. Also Queen's Edinburgh Rifles. Re slashed cuffs, these appeared on Scottish doublets 1855 to 1868 when replaced by gauntlet cuffs. For Volunteers and Militia the old pattern would have persisted, of course, for a number of years.  The card has the feel of 1860s or 1870s.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, gordon92 said:

Probably not regulars as you have said. Cap badges from regular regiments that come to mind which would fit include the 1st, 74th, and 91st. Also Queen's Edinburgh Rifles. Re slashed cuffs, these appeared on Scottish doublets 1855 to 1868 when replaced by gauntlet cuffs. For Volunteers and Militia the old pattern would have persisted, of course, for a number of years.  The card has the feel of 1860s or 1870s.

Later than the 1870s, the “round forage cap” (as it was described in regulations) first appeared for sale in 1880** and in post Cardwell dress regulations in 1882.  Its design was based on a similar cap worn by the Foot Guards since 1850.  It’s the fellow on the left who appears most odd and I’m wondering if he’s a European bandsman for an Indian Army regiment, whose bands were made up from Anglo Indians and some Europeans (including British).  The cap badge and frock coat are most unusual.  With the other two looking like British (Scots) auxiliaries it crossed my mind that it might be a course on brass instruments at a Band School, as they had no entitlement back then to attend Kneller Hall.

**I believe the date is thus too late for numbered regimental insignia and slashed cuffs to still be on the scene, and that seems a show stopper.  It’s the most intriguing and mysterious photograph that I’ve seen for a while.

Edited 24 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Alan24]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I agree that the uniform and cap seem pristine and I suspect they were probably issued to him by the regimental depot specifically for the medal presentation.  The photo has the typical look of publicity photos taken shortly after the medal has been awarded.  It’s noticeable in other, similar images, of presentations at home (as opposed to in the field) that the uniforms always seem to look squeaky clean immaculate.

Option 1 worthy of further research is Private Compton as recorded by Northampton Chronicle 07 April 1917.

Option 2 is Private George Jackson recorded by Northampton Chronicle 06 Jan 1917.