Postcards

[Gardenerbill]

Do you think the slight hint of a smile confirms your hypothesis that he is pleased to back in uniform. 

[apt50]

Not strictly a postcard as a plain backed slightly larger sized print, thought to be a group of First Battalion Ox and Bucks (or some connection with them), possibly taken in India circa 1918. No definite information. One or two may have seen it before as previously attached to a short lived post elsewhere on the forum.

[CorporalPunishment]

36 minutes ago, apt50 said:

Not strictly a postcard as a plain backed slightly larger sized print, thought to be a group of First Battalion Ox and Bucks (or some connection with them), possibly taken in India circa 1918. No definite information. One or two may have seen it before as previously attached to a short lived post elsewhere on the forum.

The photo looks to be much later than 1918 going by their general appearance and those web belts.     Pete.

[apt50]

2 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The photo looks to be much later than 1918 going by their general appearance and those web belts.     Pete.

If so my family history is in a state of crisis! Venturing near this forum always exposes my ignorance, in this case of  items such as belts. I am currently trying to sort out what family is happy with being put online and what not. I do not yet feel I can post a full photograph of the family connection with the Ox and Bucks. But I think I can post  part of a studio  photograph apparently taken in 1918. How should the belt be described?

[CorporalPunishment]

2 hours ago, apt50 said:

If so my family history is in a state of crisis! Venturing near this forum always exposes my ignorance, in this case of  items such as belts. I am currently trying to sort out what family is happy with being put online and what not. I do not yet feel I can post a full photograph of the family connection with the Ox and Bucks. But I think I can post  part of a studio  photograph apparently taken in 1918. How should the belt be described?

I am by no means an expert on webbing but this photo shows the 1908 pattern web belt. The Oxfordshire Light Infantry became the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry in 1908 so I would have doubts about the date on the photo, given the helmet insignia. In the previous photo they appear to be wearing the 1937 pattern web belts which would sit better with their general appearance.     Pete.

r

 

[Acknown]

Whilst unclear, to me the group members are wearing '37 Pattern web belts.

https://picclick.co.uk/Very-Good-1937-Pattern-British-Army-Webbing-Belt-174552679499.html

Acknown

Edited 16 April , 2022 by Acknown

[apt50]

10 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

 

I have found it to be a problem with photographs that have  come down different  sides of the family, that the final sorting and/or selection has been done by other than the ‘original soldier’ – and long after the photographs were taken. So I find it feasible that the group photograph was assumed to be relevant to the family member known to be with the Ox and Bucks in Mesopotamia – because there were ‘sun helmets’ in the picture. Family members may have been wasting their time trying to identify anyone on it! It would leave the problem of why the family had the photograph, as I am aware of no other reason  they would have it. But there are some questions  to which no answer is ever found.  I have just seen Acknown’s comment.  1937 makes the problem for me even greater – and puts the photograph well out of the scope of the forum!

I will throw my misgivings and caution to the wind and post the full postcard of the individual soldier. Now I don’t think the family could misidentify the man in the photograph – but place and time possibly. However on this basis it would have to have been taken between May 1916 and the end of the Great War.  But for the inscription on the back, I might have thought the photograph was taken on transfer to the Ox and Bucks from the subject’s original regiment.  While no service records survive, there is other evidence he was transferred in May 1916 to the Ox and Bucks, sent to India and at some further  date in 1916 reached Mesopotamia.  Might it be possible that the photograph was taken  at some point ‘along the way’, either with old equipment ,  even perhaps items used as props by a photographer accustomed to photographing members of the regiment?  But this is probably too speculative

[FROGSMILE]

The group photo is as suggested much later than WW1.  In addition to the 1937 pattern web belts, they appear to wear khaki drill shirts, rather than jackets, and are equipped with a different rifle to the SMLE.  It seems to have a distinctive protruding muzzle like a P14, but I’m not positive what it is.

Edited 16 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

31 minutes ago, apt50 said:

I have found it to be a problem with photographs that have  come down different  sides of the family, that the final sorting and/or selection has been done by other than the ‘original soldier’ – and long after the photographs were taken. So I find it feasible that the group photograph was assumed to be relevant to the family member known to be with the Ox and Bucks in Mesopotamia – because there were ‘sun helmets’ in the picture. Family members may have been wasting their time trying to identify anyone on it! It would leave the problem of why the family had the photograph, as I am aware of no other reason  they would have it. But there are some questions  to which no answer is ever found.  I have just seen Acknown’s comment.  1937 makes the problem for me even greater – and puts the photograph well out of the scope of the forum!

 

I will throw my misgivings and caution to the wind and post the full postcard of the individual soldier. Now I don’t think the family could misidentify the man in the photograph – but place and time possibly. However on this basis it would have to have been taken between May 1916 and the end of the Great War.  But for the inscription on the back, I might have thought the photograph was taken on transfer to the Ox and Bucks from the subject’s original regiment.  While no service records survive, there is other evidence he was transferred in May 1916 to the Ox and Bucks, sent to India and at some further  date in 1916 reached Mesopotamia.  Might it be possible that the photograph was taken  at some point ‘along the way’, either with old equipment ,  even perhaps items used as props by a photographer accustomed to photographing members of the regiment?  But this is probably too speculative

The absence of hose tops, the long puttees, the style of khaki drill uniform, the Wolseley pattern helmet and it’s flash taken from old scarlet shoulder straps**, are all commensurate with a WW1 photo for this individual soldier.
**old stocks would have been used up until replacement patterns with altered title, specifically for sun helmets, could be procured.

Edited 16 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Acknown]

Re the group photograph, Wikipedia tells us: 'In March 1922 the [2nd] battalion [Ox and Bucks] arrived in Rawalpindi, India, later moving to Razmak in Waziristan on the North-West Frontier. In 1929 the battalion moved to Maymo in Upper Burma and then to Rangoon. In 1934 the battalion returned to India, initially to Bareilly and then to Mhow where it remained until it left India in June 1940, arriving home the following month.'

Acknown

Edited 16 April , 2022 by Acknown

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Acknown said:

Re the group photograph, Wikipedia tells us: 'In March 1922 the [2nd] battalion [Ox and Bucks] ..... returned to India, initially to Bareilly and then to Mhow where it remained until it left India in June 1940, arriving home the following month.'

Acknown

That makes complete sense and ties in very neatly with everything seen in the group photo.  I’m intrigued as to whether the battalion might have been equipped with P14s whilst there**.
**see black and white photos in my post above.

Edited 16 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[RedCoat]

I thought you might enjoy this image, which includes my Great Grandfather. The original was of poor resolution and condition and so I had it digitally restored and coloured by a forum member.

29/10/1924 – Departure of 21st (H) Battery R.A. (Battle Axe Troop) to North Irish and Lough Swilley Defences:-

 The battery under Captain P.D. Desbrow M.C., R.A., Commanding, Lieut. W.A. Murley, M.C., R.A., Lieut. C.C. Griffin, D.C.M., R.A., and 73 other ranks paraded at the citadel on Wednesday 29th October 1924, moving for entraining at Millbay Station (GWR), to their destination via Fleetwood and Belfast. The advance party having already proceeded i/c of Major H.H. Baxter M.C., R.A., and Lieut. L. Spragg, M.C., R.A., on 17th October 1924. In spite of very inclement weather and heavy rain, they received a good send off. Bt. Lieut-Colonel F.W. Barron, O.B.E., R.A. (acting CRA) wished them goodbye and good luck in their new station, and passed a few remarks appropriate to the occasion. By kind permission of the Officer Commanding, the band and drums of the South Wales Borderers played the battery to the station, when Auld Lang Syne and cheers mingled as the train left. The Battle Axe will be missed from the Station, where it has been carried by representitives of the battery since 1902.

Cheers
RC

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, RedCoat said:

I thought you might enjoy this image, which includes my Great Grandfather. The original was of poor resolution and condition and so I had it digitally restored and coloured by a forum member.

29/10/1924 – Departure of 21st (H) Battery R.A. (Battle Axe Troop) to North Irish and Lough Swilley Defences:-

 The battery under Captain P.D. Desbrow M.C., R.A., Commanding, Lieut. W.A. Murley, M.C., R.A., Lieut. C.C. Griffin, D.C.M., R.A., and 73 other ranks paraded at the citadel on Wednesday 29th October 1924, moving for entraining at Millbay Station (GWR), to their destination via Fleetwood and Belfast. The advance party having already proceeded i/c of Major H.H. Baxter M.C., R.A., and Lieut. L. Spragg, M.C., R.A., on 17th October 1924. In spite of very inclement weather and heavy rain, they received a good send off. Bt. Lieut-Colonel F.W. Barron, O.B.E., R.A. (acting CRA) wished them goodbye and good luck in their new station, and passed a few remarks appropriate to the occasion. By kind permission of the Officer Commanding, the band and drums of the South Wales Borderers played the battery to the station, when Auld Lang Syne and cheers mingled as the train left. The Battle Axe will be missed from the Station, where it has been carried by representitives of the battery since 1902.

Cheers
RC

Interesting to see the RAOC Sergeant with WW1 medal ribbons at rear left.  Presumably he was an Armourer, but the Armaments Artificer role switched back and forth between the RA and AOC/RAOC at various periods, and I cannot recall offhand the precise situation in 1924.  There also appears to be an officer of the RE and one or two soldiers of other cap badges present.

Edited 16 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[RedCoat]

Yes, quite right - lots going on for such a small group photo. Also interesting to see the boss wearing his cuff rank tunic still.

 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, RedCoat said:

Yes, quite right - lots going on for such a small group photo. Also interesting to see the boss wearing his cuff rank tunic still.

 

Yes he’s right at the end of his 2-years period of grace after the regulation was changed.

[apt50]

36 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The absence of hose tops, the long puttees, the style of khaki drill uniform, the Wolseley pattern helmet and it’s flash taken from old scarlet shoulder straps**, are all commensurate with a WW1 photo for this individual soldier.
**old stocks would have been used up until replacement patterns with altered title, specifically for sun helmets, could be procured.

 

37 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The absence of hose tops, the long puttees, the style of khaki drill uniform, the Wolseley pattern helmet and it’s flash taken from old scarlet shoulder straps**, are all commensurate with a WW1 photo for this individual soldier.
**old stocks would have been used up until replacement patterns with altered title, specifically for sun helmets, could be procured.

Thanks to you, Corporal Punishment and Acknown for your replies.  Are there indications on the group photograph that it is Ox and Bucks, as so far as I know there was no further family connection with the regiment after demobilisation at the end of the Great War? Of course there may have been remaining contact with 'old comrades' that I don't know about.  I do have a further photograph which has details on the back for A. P. Ram & Co, Regimental Photographers, Moore House Barracks, Bangalore.   There is no date however. Inscribed on the back is "The happy family".I would be grateful for any comments which would give me more information about it.  I note the helmets still proclaim 'Oxford'.  All else I have from that period are three or four prints of what is said to be Baghdad 1918 evidence perhaps that my family member was on of those who took advantage of leave to visit Baghdad, as mentioned in the battalion history.

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, apt50 said:

 

Thanks to you, Corporal Punishment and Acknown for your replies.  Are there indications on the group photograph that it is Ox and Bucks, as so far as I know there was no further family connection with the regiment after demobilisation at the end of the Great War? Of course there may have been remaining contact with 'old comrades' that I don't know about.  I do have a further photograph which has details on the back for A. P. Ram & Co, Regimental Photographers, Moore House Barracks, Bangalore.   There is no date however. Inscribed on the back is "The happy family".I would be grateful for any comments which would give me more information about it.  I note the helmets still proclaim 'Oxford'.  All else I have from that period are three or four prints of what is said to be Baghdad 1918 evidence perhaps that my family member was on of those who took advantage of leave to visit Baghdad, as mentioned in the battalion history.

The men in all your photos have the appearance of regular army soldiers, they do not look like wartime volunteers or conscripts.  Their dress and appearance bespeaks men steeped in regimental ritual and regulation.  In the latest photo some of the men are wearing their best jackets used for barracks Guard, where the regiments famous collar badge comprising a regimental gorget sized button with gimp cord has been fitted.  They all have the older pattern helmet flash, which suggests pre or early war.  
I do not know your family circumstances but the combination of photos from the 1910s and the 1930s suggests either, a full career soldier whose service spanned that period, or two men in the family who each served in one of those decades. As regards clues, in the later period group photo the only key point visible is what appear to be P14 rifles.  They appear in your group photo and they also appear in the photo I posted above that definitively shows an OBLI soldier in the mid 1920s.  He’s wearing the later pattern helmet flash with plain bugle horn and carries a P14, which would seem to be a link between the images (yours and mine).  Over a full 21/22-year career a soldier would usually serve in both regular battalions of his regiment.

1st Bn Oxfordshire Light Infantry.

1903India: Subathu 

 1906Lucknow 

 1908.10.16 title changed to 1st Battalion, The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry

 1909Madras

1912Ahmednagar 17 Bde, 6 Ind Inf Div

1914.11.26Mesopotamia17 Bde, 6 Ind Inf Div

 1916.04.29captured by the Turks at Kut al Amara

 1916.01Provisional Bn, The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry 
formed at Wadi from reinforcements.

2nd Bn The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry. 

1922.03India: Rawalpindi 

 1924Razmak 

 1927Waziristan 

 1928Calcutta 

 1929Maymyo 

 1931Rangoon 

 1934.11Bareilly

NB.  There is an interesting aspect concerning the regimental title and it’s previous precedence numbers.  The old 43rd LI had been nominally associated with Monmouthshire, but it was not a strong and meaningful association.  Conversely the old 52nd LI, which had been associated with Oxfordshire had a much more meaningful tie with that county.  When the 43rd were merged with the 52nd in 1881, that situation was reflected with the new so-called “territorial” title, in that Monmouthshire was ignored, and the new regiment became The Oxfordshire Light Infantry.  Not to be outdone, the more senior 1st Battalion, insisted on referring to itself as the 43rd and so naturally the 2nd Battalion used 52nd, this was not least a historical tie because the two regiments, 43rd and 52nd, had been brigaded together in the legendary Light Division** throughout the Napoleonic Wars and knew each other well.  Ergo it’s occurred to me that the helmet flash of a German style bugle horn (as opposed to the French style that had previously been universal on shoulder straps) with county title Oxford beneath, might well have been an idiosyncrasy of the 2nd Battalion (old 52nd) and in use after the regimental title change to include Buckinghamshire in 1908.  This change to include the latter county was a reflection of the strong relationship with that county that had developed because when the regiment (OLI) was created, in July 1881, it had been allocated all the Volunteer Rifle Corps that existed within that county, in addition to those of Oxfordshire.  Recognition of Buckinghamshire was a reflection of the successor Territorial Force battalions that now existed as part of the regiment’s auxiliary units.
 

**alongside the 60th Rifles and the Rifle Brigade.

Edited 16 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

Thank you for your comments.  So far as I am aware only one member of this particular family was in the Ox and Bucks, and that was in the Great War from 1916 on.  The family 'knew' that he was in Mesopotamia and the one story of his time in the war that reached me was that a bullet went through the top of his 'sun helmet', as it was known to his family. By the time he married in 1924 he was back in civilian life. Before I try and puzzle it out any further I would like some help with photographic identification, not my strong suit.  I was told and it looked good enough to me that the man in the studio portrait was the same as the man in the middle of the back row of the Bangalore photograph. I would be grateful for your opinion

[FROGSMILE]

12 minutes ago, apt50 said:

Thank you for your comments.  So far as I am aware only one member of this particular family was in the Ox and Bucks, and that was in the Great War from 1916 on.  The family 'knew' that he was in Mesopotamia and the one story of his time in the war that reached me was that a bullet went through the top of his 'sun helmet', as it was known to his family. By the time he married in 1924 he was back in civilian life. Before I try and puzzle it out any further I would like some help with photographic identification, not my strong suit.  I was told and it looked good enough to me that the man in the studio portrait was the same as the man in the middle of the back row of the Bangalore photograph. I would be grateful for your opinion

Yes, I’m entirely confident that they’re the same man. 
 

 

[CorporalPunishment]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, I’m entirely confident that they’re the same man. 
 

 

I'll second that.     Pete.

[apt50]

39 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, I’m entirely confident that they’re the same man. 
 

 

Thank you to both you and Frogsmile. The next question is whether it is the same man on images I hope to attach (from postcards). The local vicar's notes of parishioners in the forces indicate that my relative left home for the army early 1916, and was a Private in the KRRC. Transferred to the Oxford & Bucks L.I. he was sent to India in May 1916 and by Nov 1916 he was 1 Oxford & Bucks L,I. Mesopotamia E.F. c/o India Office, London. When I came across this it seemed to make sense of the attached photographs.  The standing studio portrait is inscribed Jan 1916 and was taken at "STICKYBACKS"of High Street Chatham and High Street Sheerness (to whom and to the Bangalore photographers any due acknowledgement is given). Sheerness would fit in with where the Long Long Trail tells me the KRRC reserve battalions were stationed. The second portrait is dated March 1916 and was taken in his home town. I did try a separate scan just of the badge. I think it could be KRRC but if anything my badge recognition is worse than my people recognition. If everything fits, the Bangalore photograph might include at least one hostilities only soldier.

[CorporalPunishment]

Yes, I think it's the same man and yes, KRRC.      Pete.

[apt50]

26 minutes ago, CorporalPunishment said:

Yes, I think it's the same man and yes, KRRC.      Pete.

Thank you very much. Every time I venture onto the forum, I tend to end up doubting everything I have ever believed, such is the expertise with which my assumptions and preconceptions are dismantled!

[FROGSMILE]

I too believe it to be the same man pictured in both KRRC and O&BLI insignia.  Going by the dates you’ve quoted he was one of the many drafts of reinforcements used to re establish a 1st Battalion of the O&BLI after the original had been captured at Kut Al Amara.

Edited 16 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[apt50]

40 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I too believe it to be the same man pictured in both KRRC and O&BLI insignia.  Going by the dates you’ve quoted he was one of the many drafts of reinforcements used to re establish a 1st Battalion of the O&BLI after the original had been captured at Kut El Amara.

Thank you for your reply. I am delighted by your second sentence, as I had thought he would be in one of the drafts you mention. For once I did not get it wrong!

Now I need to work out the likely circumstances of the Bangalore photograph, in the light of your observations on the men in it.