Postcards

[Muerrisch]

Welch Regt. Military Police Section

There is a distinction:

Military Police = a separate corps, badges as such, lowest ranl acting lance-corporal

regimental police = trustworthy soldiers of the regiment, wear arm-band of regimental design usually including "RP", duties mostly in barracks and the streets of the nearest town. Under a sergeant appointed Provost Sergeant.

[john gregory]

There is a distinction:

Military Police = a separate corps, badges as such, lowest ranl acting lance-corporal

regimental police = trustworthy soldiers of the regiment, wear arm-band of regimental design usually including "RP", duties mostly in barracks and the streets of the nearest town. Under a sergeant appointed Provost Sergeant.

The photo I put on, Notts and Derby cap badge, Military Police arm band, Private, ???

[Muerrisch]

I was guilty of applying recent history [WW II and since] to the Great War. I had and have no evidence that Regimental Police wore MP brassard, and none that MPs all had at least L/Cpl.

A bit surprised though, as ever!

[FROGSMILE]

MP? In my Reg we had Provost Staff. Is this before the MP's were formed?

I have an RMP colleague who is a bit of a buff on their history and it seems that in 1914 the specialised military police was tiny and divided into two distinct parts, each with its own badge, the military foot police and the military mounted police, together forming a Corps of Military Police (CMP). Officers were not badged and were provided via secondment from the infantry and cavalry respectively. These essentially staff appointments were known as Provost Marshals (Field Rank) and Assistant Provost Marshals (Junior Officers).

The expansion between 1914 and 1919 was great and there was even a large military police 'docks' section operating mainly in France to prevent pilfering and black marketeering. Running side-by-side were the then titled Regimental Military Police provided by each battalion under a provost sergeant. It was not until between the wars that the latter dropped the 'military' sub-title to avoid sensibilities with the by then more established CMP. The Regimental Military Police were often 'brigaded. within garrisons and training grounds under a Provost Marshall who was responsible to the formation commander for discipline.

The discrete, specialised military police, dealt more with rear area security, route marking, PoW and traffic control, although they increasingly became involved in discipline as the war went on, especially the hunting down of malingerers and deserters. These men could not join direct and had to come from other arms and services and so this was a popular area to transfer to for men with long service who saw a chance to specialise and lead a more stable (and relatively more safe) life. Unsurprisingly there was a great deal of cross fertilisation between the two 'types' of military police with experience of service in the regiment/battalion variant often seen as a precursor to transfer.

The distinction at that time then was between CMP (specialists) and RMP (regimentally/battalion provided).

[FROGSMILE]

what kind of rifles are these??

They are 'long' lee enfields (an infantry variant, there was also a shorter cavalry 'carbine' version), and were the previous service rifle to the Short, Magazine (fed) Lee Enfield (SMLE) issued to front line troops of both infantry and cavalry. They were famous for using the first smokeless ammunition (as opposed to the previous Lee Metford which belched smoke) and matching the 'Lee' magazine, with the 'Enfield' barrel (more grooves to improve accuracy at range).

[RaySearching]

5th Gordon Highlanders

Robert survived the war

[robins2]

They are 'long' lee enfields (an infantry variant, there was also a shorter cavalry 'carbine' version), and were the previous service rifle to the Short, Magazine (fed) Lee Enfield (SMLE) issued to front line troops of both infantry and cavalry. They were famous for using the first smokeless ammunition (as opposed to the previous Lee Metford which belched smoke) and matching the 'Lee' magazine, with the 'Enfield' barrel (more grooves to improve accuracy at range).

thanks for that

Regards

Bob R.

[Ian Robertson]

What a tremendous thread which I have just spent an enjoyable time trawling through. None of the Senior Service yet so i thought that I'd post these although some of them have appeared on the forum before.

First up is my Wife's Grandfather Alex "Sandy" Webster, Ltn RNR who served on HMS King Alfred and was torpedoed twice but survived.He had his master's certificate and went back to the Merchant Navy after the war becoming one of the first tanker captains. He left the sea in the late 20's at the time of his second son's birth. He gave this son the middle name of Ormer after his last command and my father in law was called nothing but Ormie most of his life. Alex took over the family pub and was a prominent member of the Broughty Ferry Life Boat Crew.

[Ian Robertson]

Alex had a camera and took a few pictures while on service. This one shows the crew of HMS King Alfred on deck having breakfast. I think it was taken one of the times that they were torpedoed

Taken at the same time

This one is entitled "Ready to Jump"

[Ian Robertson]

My Great Uncle Stewart Wilkie, seated with his best pal Matt Standish. I think that this was probably taken about 1910.

Many thanks to forum member ATNOMIS(Simon) for repiaring and cleaning up this picture.

Edited 25 November , 2010 by Ian Robertson

[Ian Robertson]

This one has on the back "With kind regards from Mary Wilson and Ernest Marshall 1917" I think that they were family friends as it was in with a lot of other family photographs,

Again ATNOMIS (simon) has made abrilliant job of removing the scrathes and damage to the original picture.

Edited 25 November , 2010 by Ian Robertson

[Ian Robertson]

OK, a couple of gunners now, This is my Grandfather 23967 Bdr Charles Smith RFA. Wounded in action and discharged in October 1917.

[Ian Robertson]

A distant relative surname Drummond. He was my great Uncle's wife's cousin!

[Ian Robertson]

This is marked J. Drummond and I am guessing that he is the brother of the soldier in the previous post

[trenchtrotter]

Thanks Ian,

Thankyou in particular for the Naval pictures. Really interesting. Not an area of uniform or history I am familiar with.

TT

[Muerrisch]

I have an RMP colleague who is a bit of a buff on their history and it seems that in 1914 the specialised military police was tiny and divided into two distinct parts, each with its own badge, the military foot police and the military mounted police, together forming a Corps of Military Police (CMP). Officers were not badged and were provided via secondment from the infantry and cavalry respectively. These essentially staff appointments were known as Provost Marshals (Field Rank) and Assistant Provost Marshals (Junior Officers).

The expansion between 1914 and 1919 was great and there was even a large military police 'docks' section operating mainly in France to prevent pilfering and black marketeering. Running side-by-side were the then titled Regimental Military Police provided by each battalion under a provost sergeant. It was not until between the wars that the latter dropped the 'military' sub-title to avoid sensibilities with the by then more established CRMP. The Regimental Military Police were often 'brigaded. within garrisons and training grounds under a Provost Marshall who was responsible to the formation commander for discipline.

The discrete, specialised military police, dealt more with rear area security, route marking, PoW and traffic control, although they increasingly became involved in discipline as the war went on, especially the hunting down of malingerers and deserters. These men could not join direct and had to come from other arms and services and so this was a popular area to transfer to for men with long service who saw a chance to specialise and lead a more stable (and relatively more safe) life. Unsurprisingly there was a great deal of cross fertilisation between the two 'types' of military police with experience of service in the regiment/battalion variant often seen as a precursor to transfer.

The distinction at that time then was between CMP (specialists) and RMP (regimentally/battalion provided).

Can you confirm or deny that all CMP in Great War were at least Acting L/Cpl please?

[Ian Robertson]

My Wife's Great Uncle Alexander Kilpatrick Collins, aged 23, 2nd Lt 12/13th Northumberland Fusiliers KIA 29/05/1918, no known grave, comemorated on the SOISSONS memorial

[FROGSMILE]

Can you confirm or deny that all CMP in Great War were at least Acting L/Cpl please?

Yes David, I understand that all soldiers were promoted to that minimum rank upon successful 'transfer' to the CMP (later CRMP). Some of course retained their superior substantive rank.

[ATNOMIS]

This one has on the back "With kind regards from Mary Wilson and Ernest Marshall 1917" I think that they were family friends as it was in with a lot of other family photographs,

Again ATNOMIS (simon) has made abrilliant job of removing the scrathes and damage to the original picture.

Glad you like them.

Your more than welcome.

Simon/Atnomis

[john gregory]

Yes David, I understand that all soldiers were promoted to that minimum rank upon successful 'transfer' to the CMP (later CRMP). Some of course retained their superior substantive rank.

???????

[john gregory]

17155 Pte. Thomas Pountain N/Derby

[FROGSMILE]

???????

Your photo is a Regimental Military Policeman in an infantry battalion, John. David was talking about the CMP (specialist corps).

Do not go by the brassards/armbands, there was no 'standard' configuration for regimental/battalion military police (nor, incidentally is there today) and you will see many variations according to local arrangements/CO's whim/regimental standing orders. Some used cloth lettering, others cut out brass letters from old shell casings suitably flattened in a vice (highly polished).

[john gregory]

118465 Pte.Percy Sydney James Baggett, 5th N/Derby. Enlisted on the 30.12.1916 served in France and Belgium, transferred to the reserve on the 25.11.1919. Died of Tuberculosis in 1925.

[john gregory]

Your photo is a Regimental Military Policeman in an infantry battalion, John. David was talking about the CMP (specialist corps).

Do not go by the brassards/armbands, there was no 'standard' configuration for regimental/battalion military police (nor, incidentally is there today) and you will see many variations according to local arrangements/CO's whim/regimental standing orders. Some used cloth lettering, others cut out brass letters from old shell casings suitable flattened in a vice (highly polished).

OK, thanks, I am getting to understand it all better now. JG

[Esskay]

Coming in late to this - but another RN representative - my husband's grandfather John Keene - Stoker K30191

Born 30th May 1898 (added 1 year to his age on enlistment)

Served 29th December 1915 - 3rd March 1919

HMS Intrepid (14/3/1916 - 18/12/1916) North Russia

HMS Blonde (15/3/1917 - 3/3/1919) Mostly patrolling Scapa Flow/Firth of Forth