Captain J.H Pritchard HAC - Burial HAC Cemetery 23.4.13

[Neil Mackenzie]

I certainly hope to be there on 23rd. I will be in the middle of a walking trip so will probably be the scruffiest person there but no disrespect intended.

Neil

[Pighills]

What a wonderful outcome!

Well done Operasinger for standing your ground. I hope the day went wonderfully for you all, glad so many of you were able to honour your Capt.

I shall hope to catch the cermony on tv later, maybe one day I will get to visit him too.

[steven belfast]

Is there any other footage of this apart from the 3 mins on the iplayer?

[PBI]

I noticed with a deal of annoyance today that a Solitary Member of the Lets pretend to be Soldiers Regiment was in evidence at the Funerals.i really thought that this singular prescence detracted somewhat from the solemnity of the service,this charlatan was certainly not there to pay his respects but was more of the look at me look my Kit and how much i paid for it scenario.When i attended the Funeral of Pte Mather at Prowse Point the Australian Warrant Officer in charge of the Burial Party,and senoir Officials from CWGC expressly forbade the single Dresser Upper present from entering the Cemetery until the conclusion of the Service..this certainly without a doubt put a crimp in His Day and quite rightly so.Have these so called re enactors no sense of respect ?..these Odd Balls seem intent on Muscling in on any WW1 related event both here in the UK and in F & F..i bet they are already planning their appearances for 2014 and bulling their Boots and gleefully rubbing their hands in anticipation at the Media coverage they will no doubt recieve.

[Stebie9173]

Has anyone checked the Gazette for J H Pritchard's appointment as acting Captain? He was Gazetted as acting Captain in June 1917 with effect from April 1917.

http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/30158/supplements/6514

Steve.

[Andrew Upton]

Has anyone checked the Gazette for J H Pritchard's appointment as acting Captain? He was Gazetted as acting Captain in June 1917 with effect from April 1917.

If you search the CWGC website, the link to his individual commemoration still shows the following:

PRITCHARD, JOHN HAROLD - Captain - 15/05/1917 - Honourable Artillery Company - United Kingdom - Bay 1. - ARRAS MEMORIAL

But if you click on the link itself, the information has been updated to read as follows:

Name: PRITCHARD, JOHN HAROLD

Rank: Lieutenant

Date of Death: 15/05/1917

Age: 31

Regiment/Service: Honourable Artillery Company

Grave Reference: II. AA. 6.

Cemetery: H.A.C. CEMETERY, ECOUST-ST. MEIN

With the following additional information beneath:

"N.B. - Please note that in the months prior to his death, this casualty was serving as a Temporary Captain (see London Gazette entry for details). At the time of his death records confirm that he was acting as Captain, however his commemoration must reflect his substantive rank which was Lieutenant. His burial has yet to take place, until then his official place of commemoration will remain as Bay 1 of the Arras Memorial."

Seems a bit strange that whilst missing they seem to have had his rank listed for 90 odd years as Captain, the rank he died serving as, yet now he's actually been found they've done something of a U-turn and gone only for his substantive rank of Lieutenant...

[Stebie9173]

That seems very strange to me. I was under the impression that acting ranks appeared on gravestones. One example noted in the main CWGC site itself - Lieutenant (Acting Lieutenant Colonel) J N Marshall V.C. M.C. & Bar:

http://www.cwgc.org/...317&menu=subsub

http://www.cwgc.org/..., JAMES NEVILLE

http://www.flickr.co...ss2/8642211731/

Acting rank per Gazette:

http://www.london-ga...pplements/14633

Steve.

[Stebie9173]

I think Captain Pritchard is being done a disservice here - all the officers who I have details on during my research who were killed after being Gazetted as an acting Captain are commemorated on CWGC as Captains. I cannot work out what criteria they are using, unless they are applying a criteria which was not even adhered to at the time.

Steve.

[roryherbert]

Email received yesterday from the HAC;

HAC Écoust St Mein St Mein/Bullecourt reburial: News coverage web links for 23 April.

On 23^rd April 2013 the remains of four World War One HAC soldiers who were killed in action in France nearly 100 years ago have been laid to rest in the HAC cemetery South of Écoust St Mein. Two un-named soldiers and two who have been identified as Lieutenant (Acting Captain) Pritchard and Private Elphick were re-interred. These personnel were all serving with the 2^nd Battalion HAC and were killed on 15 May 1917 at Bullecourt.

Members may be interested in the web links collated by the HAC Archivist:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22266483

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22272950

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2313402/British-soldiers-Private-Christopher-Douglas-Elphick-Lieutenant-John-Harold-Pritchard-buried-France-96-years-killed-action-WWI.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/23/british-first-world-war-soldiers-buried

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/britain-at-war/10013226/British-soldiers-killed-in-First-World-War-finally-buried-with-full-military-honours.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/britain-at-war/10013068/World-War-I-soldiers-laid-to-rest-nearly-a-century-after-their-deaths.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/after-96-years-an-honourable-band-of-brothers-is-laid-to-rest-8584635.html

http://news.sky.com/story/1081833/world-war-one-soldiers-laid-to-rest-in-france

http://www.army.mod.uk/news/25476.aspx

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10373409.Ceremonial_burial_for_First_World_War_soldiers/

http://bfbs.com/news/worldwide/ww1-soldiers-finally-laid-rest-63372.html

http://metro.co.uk/2013/04/23/world-war-i-soldiers-laid-to-rest-after-96-years-3664165/

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/394136/Ceremonial-funeral-for-WW1-soldiers

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/first-world-war-heroes-buried-1849703?tabPane=Comments

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130423/british-soldiers-re-interred-nearly-century-later

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/23/lt-john-harold-pritchard-wwi-buried_n_3140091.html?#slide=2370958

http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20130423/odd-news/ceremonial-burial-for-wwi-soldiers.466756

[Neil Mackenzie]

I was lucky enough to be on a walking holiday in the area this week and had the privilege of attending the midday burial of the 4 HAC men including John Pritchard. The HAC did a great job. Last Post was played as well as I have ever heard it (on a cornet rather than a bugle). Finally the singing of 'Crossing the Bar' by the family was a lovely and fitting end to the occasion.

Some of the younger members of the Pritchard family were visibly moved during the burial and it was very touching to see.

I was also lucky enough to have a brief conversation with both Jennifer and Janet Shell and they both mentioned how much the Forum had helped in bringing things together.

Neil

[roryherbert]

Neil,

Did you ever discover the point of the man dressed as a WW1 soldier? It's seems to me very unlikely that his presence would have been connected with the HAC so I was wondering if you found out whether he had a family connection or just wanted to be on camera?

Regards,

Rory.

[roryherbert]

Good to see Prince Michael of Kent there, don't you think?

[Neil Mackenzie]

Rory

I did not talk to the individual in question but quite a few of those present were obviously interested as I saw a number of people speaking to him.

However, I also heard a variety of opinions being expressed by people around me on the matter - I am keeping mine to myself.

Neil

[ianjonesncl]

I certainly hope to be there on 23rd. I will be in the middle of a walking trip so will probably be the scruffiest person there but no disrespect intended.

Neil

Neil

I think that honour would have been taken by the Baldrick re-enactor type.

[seaforth78]

What has not been mentioned on this wonderful thread so far (but mentioned in the news reports) is that my friend, an American and member of this forum) bought the sword of Captain Pritchard some seven years ago and because of the above 2010 posts was able to reunite the sword with the family. He was at the service today. I enclose a photo from the BBC today showing the sword on the coffin.

[roryherbert]

Rory

I did not talk to the individual in question but quite a few of those present were obviously interested as I saw a number of people speaking to him.

However, I also heard a variety of opinions being expressed by people around me on the matter - I am keeping mine to myself.

Neil

Neil

Well, there's a facebook post by an HAC soldier who was there describing him as "a sad clown" which, I imagine, would have been along the lines of some of those opinions you heard!

Clearly one BBC reporter was quite moved by the event, however;

[Peterhastie]

"Sad Clown" or not, he made the effort to go.

[keithmroberts]

"Sad Clown" or not, he made the effort to go.

I appreciate that point. I'm out of step with lots of people - don't find it easy to relate to the idea of re-enactors, although some of them have added to our knowledge of uniforms and equipment, or even medal collectors, without whose interest more medals might have been scrapped.

Perhaps some tolerance is what we need to show. OK the chap was in a repro uniform, but just maybe he saw that as a mark of respect rather than a personal ego trip. None of us can get inside another's mind to know the intent.

Keith

[Neil Mackenzie]

Seaforth - the group I was with were staying in the same hotel as the relations of Captain Pritchard. I did not personally talk to Mark but one of my mates did that evening and told him what a fantastic job he had done in returning the sword. I think it made him quite emotional. I know the family really appreciated it as well.

Rory - re your second photograph in post #91. I noticed all the gentlemen in that photograph at the event except for Mr Paxman. It was only as we were leaving that someone mentioned to me he was there. But then I am not very observant!

Neil

[roryherbert]

What has not been mentioned on this wonderful thread so far (but mentioned in the news reports) is that my friend, an American and member of this forum) bought the sword of Captain Pritchard some seven years ane because of the above 2010 posts was able to reunite the sword with the family. He was at the service today. I enclose a photo from the BBC today showing the sword on the coffin.

When I watched the news broadcasts I thought that the return of the sword was one of the most remarkable stories of this whole event. Even more so now that you have pointed out that not only was your friend able to reunite it due to this forum but also that he attended the funeral service. An honorable man amidst the Honourable Artillery Company! Here's a photo he might like;

[PBI]

Many other People made a great deal of effort to turn up,but they didnt feel the need to dress up and imitate a British Soldier of the Great War,if this Ersatz Soldier had any modicum of respect he would have remained outside the Cemetery entrance until the Service was over,and then he could have then shown himself off the the Public.Do these Poseurs really imagine that their presence really adds anything to what is meant to be a Ceremony of Solemnity in which real Serving Soldiers provided the neccessary Guard of Honour.I really get the impression that these So Called Re Enactors simply turn up at at events of this type simply to show off their kit and say "Look at Me"..Just who was this Fellow ?.i invite him to contribute to this thread and explain just what inspires him and his ilk to dress up and play at Soldiers and Muscle in on Services and Ceremonies either wanted or unwanted ,where their presence certainly provokes mixed emotions...

Excellent Photographs..thank you for sharing them.

[59165]

The services were good,even if the 1st for the unknowns had fewer folks on show.Understandable.

All well & good taking this thread into an anti reenactor direction (I'm not a fan but the wee bloke was friendly enough) but that detracts from the intention of this thread.What were we there for again?

Oh yeah...

[Lancashire Fusilier]

I agree with post # 93 and # 97, we all express our interest in WW1 in different ways, some of us collect all manner of WW1 artifacts, others write about WW1, others read about WW1, and there are those who enjoy re-enacting or taking part in WW1 ' Living History ' events, whatever is our particular enjoyment of WW1, it all serves to keep the subject matter and history of WW1 alive and hopefully enjoyed for generations to come.

That sole re-enactor, who clearly has a passion for WW1 and WW1 related uniforms etc., seems to be a dedicated and gutsy individual, I assume he is British, and he may indeed be an ex-serviceman, or perhaps he himself lost a relative in WW1, either way, to go all that distance, taking all his ' WW1 stuff ' and then stand alone ( in a dignified manner ) to pay his personal form of homage to fallen WW1 soldiers, and express his interest in WW1, in his chosen manner, seems to be something that should be accepted and tolerated if not commended, it should certainly not be ridiculed, especially without knowing the man personally or his motives in being there.

All of us have a shared interest in WW1, and I am sure there are many WW1 re-enactors included in this Forum's membership, and I am also sure that all four WW1 soldiers buried that day would be extremely proud and possibly bemused that all they did, the uniforms they wore and the equipment they used on a daily basis, is still very much of interest today, almost 100 years later.

LF

[PBI]

Fair Comment.I lost 2 Relatives in WW1,and 2 More in WW2,i have a large collection of WW1 & WW2 Memoribilia IE Books,Ammo and Kit..and i actually served for 10 Years in HM Forces,but i dont feel the need to turn up at the drop of a Hat dressed in a Uniform i am not entitled to wear.In my earlier post i mentioned that the Australian Army and CWGC High Ups at the Funeral of Pte Mather expressly FORBAD said so called re enactor to enter Prowse Point Cemetery until Cessation of said Ceremony,where he was more or less ignored by Visitors and Family Members.Gutsy certainly not...Poseur Yes..if he had a valid reason for being there dressed in a Uniform he is not entitled to wear i would be delighted if he would come forward and at least give us all an insight in to why he felt the need to dress up and Muscle in on a Solemn Ceremony ?...i suppose once WW2 is 100 Years Old we are going to be deluged with a torrent of Waffen SS Re Enactors ?,who will give themselve the New Title of Living History..As a parting thought just what eacactly are these WW1 en Actors enacting ?..Nope the Blokes a Numpty

[Lancashire Fusilier]

PBI,

Look on the bright side, perhaps he also has a WW1 German uniform!

Regards.

LF