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Remembered Today:

Captain J.H Pritchard HAC - Burial HAC Cemetery 23.4.13


ianw

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Ian,

You actually.

When you PM'd me asking for the local paper serving Cricklade, I believed that the idea was to locate relatives of Mr Pritchard, Which I was more than prepared to have a go at, being local to the place.

As far as I can see, the only reference to Cricklade was the Times article, all the others point to London.

Whilst I don't mind a challenge, I do mind wasting my time which I think a search of Cricklade for possable relatives would be, until we can establish a Cricklade connection - at which time I'd be happy to go looking.

Grant

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Plodding through Forum references to "Bullecourt", I note that this matter was referred to in the May 2009 thread below. It was suggested that we should wait for a CWGC announcement.

Can anyone confirm if there has there been any such public announcement about Pritchard or the other casualties?

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...p;hl=bullecourt

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I don't own this thread. It is Forum property.

Yes, but you were the OP and the one who has been firing off Pm's to people.

So I was assuming that you were the best informed about the case and as such were the person to answer questions - if I have that wrong then I'm sorry.

Grant

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Grant

Cricklade is also referenced in Post 14 as the potential marriage location for the parents of the John Heriot Pritchard identified in that post

Hywyn

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I see that yet again the CWGC and MOD are running true to form regarding their total lack of information being made available,and their trademark veil of secrecy descends YET AGAIN..How long do these 2 organisations plan on persuing this inane agenda of secrecy ?,dont they realise that they are certainly not doing themselves any favours,and they will certainly alienate a good many People along the way.

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No doubt, all those GWF members concerned about current MoD practices and procedures when bodies are discovered, have been taking advantage of the upcoming general election to beat a path to their MPs front door to demand change. Please let us all know what your MPs say.

Thanks.

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Anyone wishing to give CWGC feedback about communications or any other matter is invited to do so on their website. This is the form they offer in order for you to do that (it also gives an email address). http://www.cwgc.org/admin/files/AYSEnquiry.pdf

The Ministry of Defence Veteran's Policy Unit also provides an email address at http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDef...licyUnitvpu.htm.

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What do Forum members think about the spread of units that we understand are represented among the remains found?

Our HAC Captain apparently was at a lower level that the Queens and South Staffs casualties. This would seem to make sense because the HAC with 22nd Brigade/7th Division attacked on 3rd May well before the 91st Brigade on 12th May. The village was finally captured and cleared on 17th May, I think.

Also both the HAC and the Queens attacked "right of centre" and the place where the remains were found is some distance to the left of where they attacked. I appreciate that things are fluid in the midst of battle but does the position where the remains were found and the mix of units suggest that the remains were concentrated there some time after the 12th May? If so would this have been done by the Germans or by the British? The Germans were busy with counter-attacks up to 14th May so I can't see that they would have had the opportunity for this sort of activity.

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I thought Pals might be interested in the reply to my query to the CWGC about the finding of Captain Pritchard's remains. No new information but it does sum up the processes in hand

CWGC Contact Form.

Dear Mr Whitlock,

Thank you for your email concerning the recent discovery of remains at Bullecourt. Before responding to your query I should explain that deceased servicemen and women are (until such time as they are passed to us for burial in one of our cemeteries) the responsibility of the government for which they were serving. All decisions regarding investigation or attribution of identity are a matter for the relevant service authority - in this case the United Kingdom Ministry of Defence and their Joint Casualty and Compassionate Centre (JCCC). I can confirm that the JCCC have been informed of the discovery and have been provided with a full report on the remains and artefacts found at Bullecourt.

I can also advise that amongst the remains found at Bullecourt were a number of artefacts containing the name and initials of Captain Pritchard. However, at this stage I am unable to confirm that the remains found at Bullecourt are those of Captain John Harold as a final decision as to the identity of the remains remains to be taken by UK MOD. To suggest otherwise would be premature and speculative on my part as until the JCCC come to their conclusion on the evidence provided to date, the remains which rest in our custody, remain classified as unidentified.

I hope that this email answers your query. I will keep you advised of any outcome in this case.

Yours Sincerely,

Communication & Public

Relation Supervisor

Commonwealth War

Graves Commission

France Area

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Would have been nice if he could have confirmed the Regiment the Captain belonged to.

Grant

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  • 3 months later...

I note with interest that the spotlight is falling on Bullecourt again with the claim of the location of more Australian mass graves near Bullecourt.

The locals at Bullecourt have been confirming for years that there are many men still buried in their fields and the world seems about to take notice.

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  • 3 months later...

Hi Folks,

If these are the remains that I believe them to be. Then it was I that went to the then Director of the CWGC France late last year to ask why the last of them had not promptly been exhumed, and why they were out there with a wooden pallet and plastic corrugated sheeting over the hole/grave. Following my visit, they were exhumed the next day, or the day after that.

The problem we have is that the remains have to be discovered by "someone" before the authorities will/can act. I have been told that the CWGC cannot go out searching for remains but they do have to act when they are "discovered" and known to be an allied soldier. Hence the reason that they are currently found with a spade. I would like to change that but at the moment, the spade is all we (global use of we) have and yes, I am deliberately holding something back. Why, well I have had to pay the price for some other posts that I made that got too close for the people involved and I did not enjoy it.

I have been told of the approximate location of another British soldier out there close to Bullecourt. We have to arrange for him to be "re-discovered". Sorry, not to give you more detail but this Forum is PUBLIC and I don't want to get stomped on again.

I am leaving for Australia tomorrow but will become connected to the Bullecourt farmer as named when I return next year. I suspect I know him quite well already but not his name.

There is much work to be done out at Bullecourt, both for the British fallen as well as the Australians. BUT..."jumping the starters gun" can do more damage than good. Things must be done calmly and properly.......these are human remains.

They are not, and will not be forgotten. Lest We Forget.

Regards, Peter

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  • 1 year later...

I have posted this on another part of a forum about Captain Pritchard - but we are desperate for information about this topic

I have come across your posts relating to Captain John Heriot (Harold) Pritchard and I would like to be in touch as my wife (Janet Shell) is a descendant of his sister - Daisy Grace. Daisy was my wife's nan.

I don't know if you have found any other relations and the immediate crisis about burying his remains has presumably been resolved. Ironically my wife had been in touch with the HAC before all this happened so that should have been highlighted somewhere! It is a little upsetting to read about the whole issue and not be able to respond which is why I have taken a post here.

I apologise if you are not aware of the original story. A member called ianw was very active on here about it and Janet is very grateful for him pursuing the whole story. We cannot be intouch with him directly though somehow.

Is there anybody who can update us as to the latest news?. There is a nephew of Captain Pritchard still living (son of Daisy and brother to Janet's father) who also has the initials JHH as he was named after John.

Please emial me at goldsack@talktalk.net or my wife directly on greeneyedmezzosop@hotmail.com

Capt P was a fine young singer in his day and sang at St Paul's Cathedral in his youth and attended the school there - he was in fact Head Boy. Ernest and Reuben - two of his brothers were also educated there and also sang in the choir. Owing to John being killed, his name is on a wall at St Paul's cathedral which we have viewed on several occasions.

The music liveson in the family!

Many thanks,

Christopher Goldsack on behalf of Janet Shell

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operasinger: The Rules are that you need 5 posts in orfer to use the Personal Message system.

Acknowledge this and one more post and you will be there!

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operasinger: The Rules are that you need 5 posts in orfer to use the Personal Message system.

Acknowledge this and one more post and you will be there!

Thank you - things have developed at a tremendous pace today, and this will now be resolved in the coming year.

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Hi All

I have had an email from HAC, putting me in touch with Captain Pritchards relatives, so things are progressing.

I thing some of the relatives will be posting on here shortly.

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Hello there - yes I am writing on my husband's account because I couldn't get mine to work!

For those who do not yet know - last Tuesday i came across your site talking about John Harold and things moved apace after i posted here and also got in touch with HAC and MoD. Members with whom I am now particularly in touch are Mike Harrington; Paul Kendall and Ian Whitlock - all of whom have been absolutely brilliant and without whom i could not have begun to piece together the most amazing story for our family. I am also in contact with Mike Cain who has his sword and has given me a lot of informaiton about that and photographs.

My nan was JHP's sister and in that big family (7 altogether0 only 2 sisters went on to have family that we know of.). My nan married a SHELL and that is also my name through my father. We had long given up finding anything more about him although we have been very proud to have his name commemorated on a plaque in St Paul's Cathedral where he and his two brothers sang as youngsters. To have his body discovered and for us to have the opportunity to bury him properly with his family present - and not SO distant family, will be very moving and give us closure on this chapter of our history.

Until i have a meeting with the MoD and HAC, I will not know what happends next or when, but there is one nephew of John's alive and it would be wonderful to have this happen before too long if oyu get my drift! Indeed this very uncle is the last of that generation alive and was named after John Harold!

So there are 11 very excited cousins in my generation (plus their children) and two from the other sister - one of whom has worked so hard over the years on the family tree. JHP was far from forgotten nor his brothers,but we just don't have that much information and are being detectives at a distance. I can tell you though, that the night JHP died, his brother was in the aricraft above in 43rd Squadron - they had been called in to help with the ground defence. Ernest can not have known that John was below - nor vice versa, How baout that for a twist of fate?

Thank you to ALL of you for keeping alive these men in your discussions and for playing THE major part in our new journey and I can only tell you how our family is buzzing with the news and how connected we all feel through this.

Janet Shell

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On behalf of the Forum, thanks for the kind comments.

This sort of story absolutely delights us all. I was told today that the family is also planning a choir concert to honour Captain Pritchard in Bullecourt on I think the 20th July this year. I don't think this is fully confirmed yet but I would imagine that a number of Forum members may well want to attend if possible.

It is very rare for an officer's remains to be found like this - I think only 57 HAC officers died in the Great War. So the events to commemorate his sacrifice

and his eventual interment in France are very important.

I am sure we will all follow developments with great interest.

Best wishes from the Forum to your whole family - a picture of the Captain provided by Janet is attached.

post-70-0-37441000-1327931776.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Mike- your inbox is full! I can't reply to your emails! Help! Janet

Hi all

My name is Mike Harrington NOT Carrington, as some have quoted. I will try and put some people right, as to how this story came about.

I first met Didier on a visit to Bullecourt in 2007, while visiting the museum.

Didier tapped on my car window, and beckoned for me to follow him, he took me to the field, and showed me a large stainless steel cylinder, which he said was a British gas cylinder, which he had removed from the ground, during the course of removing this, the heel of a boot came out with it.

He then stopped digging and reported the find to the police.

Bearing in mind that I do not speak French and he does not speak English, but we communicated of a fashion. apparently his father had told him not to plough this small field as their were lots of human remains in the ground, as this was part of the hindenburg line.

The following year on a visit to Arras, I drove to Bullecourt, and knocked on Didiers farm just to see if anything had come of his find.

He informed me that some people had come, he assumed they were from the CWGC or the police, they removed the gas cylinder, and partially excavated the hole it came from, he told me they showed him the wallet and revolver, of a Captain Pritchard, of HAC, then filled in the hole and said leave them in peace, he was not happy, and to be honest I was angry.

I took a small bag of earth from the site, and told Didier I would try and trace any relatives, to pass on the earth and information as to where Captain Pritchard was buried.

When I got home, I wrote to the HAC for information, I also put my finding on this bulletin board.

I later had an email from the HAC archivist, who was very interested in this discovery, and has kept me informed, it seemed to take ages for any progress to be made, and HAC and i did not believe, that the people who took the cylinder and wallet were from the CWGC, they were probably something to do with the police.

During all this time, I and Didier had been corresponding, and it was very difficult, as he was writing in French and I had to get these letters translated, again the HAC archivist was of a great help.

But Didier was still a bit vague, as to what was happening.

I have now been informed by the HAC that the MOD have the 4 body's recovered, plus the wallet and other bits found earlier.

I am now hoping they will identify the other 3 men. I would also like to see the whole field excavated, as their were many men of 3 coy killed in the battle, and as Didiers father told him not to plough this field, I believe this to be the case, as it come straight from the horses mouth as they say.

I have uploaded part of the diary of the Captains last day, its in PDA format. SORRY it won't upload as its too large, but if you want a copy I can email it. mike@m-harrington.com

I hope this clarifies the story behind these posts.

Mike

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  • 9 months later...

Delighted to be able to confirm that Captain Pritchard will be buried with former his comrades on 23.4.13 at the HAC Cemetery Ecoust-St-Meins.

This will be quite an occasion as I understand that the HAC will be really pushing the boat out - a unit with great traditions honouring its dead in all conflicts via the burial of one of its heroes who fell leading his men at Bullecourt.

This is the optimum result and one that we could only dream of in March 2010. Since then the good Captain's lovely family members have been found and they have thrown themselves into doing their best to honour him. This culminated in their taking a magnificent choir to Bullecourt Church to sing in his honour just yards from where he fell.

But this was just a prelude to the HAC Cemetery on 23rd April next.

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Fascinating story, I hope that many people will be able to attend the burial next year and it is properly advertised to ensure it.

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  • 3 months later...

St.Georges day,Ian,lol.Supposed to be a secret...

Still no news on the other troops still in the field found by Moise with Cpt.P. I wonder what they have planned.It's been years since they were discovered.There is still no news on the other found troops still buried at Bullecourt & that goes back 10 years.

The field owner is not happy & I can't blame him.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hello everybody.

It has been ages since I managed to post due to losing passwords etc. Just to let you know that it has been a year of ups and downs, mostly ups. As you should have seen, the Burial of Pritchard and Elphick is on April 23rd 2013 at noon in the cemetery in Ecoust Saint-Mein. As a family we are huge which has caused some issues of late. There are 30 (under half of those who might have chosen to come) of us attending the Burials and we are all there to honour out great grandmother who lost her eldest son and never really got over it.

Ianw has stayed in touch and indeed came to the concert we gave at Bullecourt last summer for the locals ad Didier. Only recently have we heard of some very anti British feeling in that area (certainly we did not get that impression on the day we sang). I think this is why the MoD are trying to stop us tellling our story and the story of others in the press until after the event, but of course, having only spoken to Didier a couple of days ago and discovered this, it now makes a bit more sense. They just did avoidance tactics with us which i have found incredibly frustrating.

We have been told in no uncertain terms that this is a military burial and not a family burying its relative and that they are taken aback by the interest shown in our family!!! I am afraid we see it as a two fold occasion - it is the only burial JHP will have, therefore for us it IS a family burial too! Having started out saying one thing, a lot of goalposts have shifted but, finally, we will sing the piece we wanted to - the one John sang to our great grandmother before he left for the final time - and that came about because everybody was so upset, I finally told them that we WOULD be singing it as soon as the main service had ended, come what may! I think what has come out here is the lack of dialogue and decisions taken, presenting us with fait accomplis.

The main one is the War Graves Commission questioning his Captaincy (I won't go into details here) and then us being told, weeks after they first knew, that they have put Lieutenant on the headstone. There was no "I think you should know we have discovered this and are trying to sort it out" . Bad form if you ask me!

In the end of course, the Burial of our relative and of Private Elphick will be a moving and special day; the MoD will do what they always do and the HAC will ensure a spick and span ceremony as befits these men and the others 'Known only to God'. Prince Michael of Kent will attend and the sword has made its way across from the States to be on the coffin on the day - the ceremonial sword returning to its original owner. The present owner will come with it at my request and he has generously given the sword to the family.

.I have in fact spoken with the Liverpool Echo (where we all originate from after John's sister moved there on marrying) and this got picked up by the Daily Mirror which I hadn't realised was the parent paper. I gather Didier had 15 people turn up at the farm 2 days ago as a result! So I can see there might be issues on curiosity alone.

I know the Elphicks have also had issues - again, these people are all used to dealing in a military style and forget that we are professional people in our own right and not aged 22! The HAC have been very generous with their time with me when I have needed advice and it as only latterly when a more senior person started taking over that things got somewhat uncomfortable! In true British Spirit, i have not backed down over certain things and am trying to honour these men with some familial content rather than just as soldiers.

We held our breath while awaiting the date of the Thatcher funeral, but all is fine. Inded on 17th I have been invited to attend an evening at HAC where they will have an historian giev details of the battle and perhaps why the Captain/Lieutenant discrepancy has arisen! FYI - the bracelet apparently said Captain while variosu documents chopped and changed bewteen that and Lt just to confuse the picture. I know some family have not yet got over what they feel is just the CWWGC riding rough shod over us all. For me, we are burying man who was Acting Captain and in charge of his comapny at the time of his death and he will always be our Captain..

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