Captain J.H Pritchard HAC - Burial HAC Cemetery 23.4.13

[ianw]

Has anyone else noted the email from a Michael Carrington on page 49 of the latest WFA Bulletin.

He states that a farmer named Didier at Bullecourt discovered the remains of 6 soldiers who fell in May 1917. Apparently the CWGC identified one of the men as Captain John Harold Pritchard HAC. His pistol and other items were removed and the farmer was told "to leave them in peace". The site is described as having been "excavated".

The farmer is understandably upset that the men have not been removed to a war cemetery. Is it intended that they should be in the future?

What do other Pals think of this story? How much truth is there in it? I must confess to being totally gobsmacked.

Michael has made some efforts to find relatives of Captain Pritchard but with no success so far.

[KevinBattle]

I would be appalled if the CWGC actually did as described.

There were 207 casualties on 15/05/1917 including 40 of the HAC, so a strong likelihood that the other remains may also be HAC.

I don't think the HAC would take too kindly to remains of "their" men being treated in such a casual manner.

I try to look for the good and the CWGC deserve our support for the wonderful work they do in maintaining the cemeteries and Memorials, but I wonder if at some senior level they have lost comprehension about what they are supposed to represent. We have Ligny and also WW2 aircrew being discovered in Germany and Holland yet the PS4 Dept of MoD don't seem to have any grasp of the need for ALL remains, not just Iraq and Afghanistan, to be accorded the highest respect and EVERY effort, including DNA etc be used to accord these guys at least the dignity of their Name.

[ianw]

Quite agree Kevin. Our dead of all conflicts should be treated equally.

I can't believe that the circumstances are as described in the WFA Bulletin but the details carry a certain degree of conviction. Perhaps something has been lost in translation.

[Hywyn]

Ian

You may have it but just in case and you were looking for wherabouts in the country he was from.

Times 23/5/1917. Killed in action. Son of Mrs E Pritchard late of Cricklade, Wilts.

43 casualties for 2nd Bn HAC that day according to Geoffs Engine

http://www.hut-six.co.uk/cgi-bin/sxbeta2.p...=1&pageno=1

Hywyn

[ianw]

Thanks Hywyn.

Yes, this was a very bad battle for the HAC.

Google confirms there are still Pritchards in and around Cricklade.

[John_Hartley]

I would be appalled if the CWGC actually did as described.

Me too - to the extent that this just doesnt seem a credible story. Whatever some folk may think of the Commission, they simply do not go around removing artefacts, ID'ing a body from them and then just covering the bodies over to "leave them in peace". And that's before we get in a discussion about the contavention of French law - unsurprisingly, there's a requirement to notify the police when a body is found. I'm sure this will prove to be tosh. Perhaps also disappointing that the WFA Bulletin editor appears not to have undertaken even the most basic of checks before publishing the letter (and has not had the courtesy to respond to my email drawign attention to the matter).

All that said, the letter author tells me that it is several months sicn ehe submitted the letter for publication and he believes things have moved on. Firstly, he no longer believes that CWGC were involved in any excavation (and nor does the HAC researcher with whom he's in contact.) - although who was remains a mystery.

John

[ianw]

John,

Yes, I agree that checks should have been made.

What a strange hoax to perpetrate if it proves to be such.

[grantowi]

Cant see him in 1901 nor 1911 census

Nor is he on the village memorial

Grant

[rflory]

Rather interesting that the CWGC identified his name as John Harold Pritchard because both The Honourable Artillery Company in the Great War 1914-1919 and H.A.C. Annual List of Members, etc. 1913 show his name as John Heriot Pritchard. He was admitted to the HAC on 1 March 1909, and went overseas on 18 Sept 1914 as a Sergeant in the 1st Bn, HAC. He was wounded on 26 November 1914 and on 16 March 1915. He returned to England on 21 March 1915 and was commissioned in the 2nd Bn, HAC. In late 1915 while a Lieutenant with the 2nd Bn, HAC at Wimbledon he, Capt. Byron and a party of other ranks were detached for anti-Zeppelin duty at Essex. He returned to France on 1 Oct 1916 and when he was killed in action at Bullecourt on 15 May 1917 he was a Captain in the 2nd Battalion. Just after midnight on 15 May 1917 just as the 2nd Battalion had got to their position near Bullecourt the Germans counterattacked heavily. The attack was beaten off except on the left of the Battalion front where C Company commanded by Captain Pritchard was holding a salient. The company was practically annihilated, Capt Pritchard being killed. His address in 1913 was 4 Easton-Terrace, St. John's Wood and No. 1 Bartholomew Lane, London, EC TN.

Regards, Dick Flory

[Paul D Kendall]

Dear Ian

Thank you for your pm. I did note this forum thread and I have noted the article in the latest WFA Bulletin. I met Monsieur Didier at Bullecourt in October and he expressed the same frustration to me. However I have contacted the CWGC and they confirmed in January that the recovered remains of Captain Pritchard will be buried at HAC Cemetery once the MOD have carried out an investigation. Two weeks ago I learnt from the archivist at the HAC archives that the MOD are currenting investigating this case.

I have been trying to locate the family of Captain Pritchard, but to no avail. I am sure that with other people making similar efforts, we will locate them and hopefully find an image of this brave man.

Paul

[ianw]

Paul,

Thanks for your posting.

With your knowledge of the case, can you confirm any of the details. Have the remains been recovered? How long were they left interred assuming they have been recovered.

Is there any chance that the other remains can be identified? Many questions still remain on this one.

Have contacts with pritchards in Cricklade been made? No success?

Thanks also to Dick for the further details. His possibel name error on the CWGC database is interesting.

Regards Ian

[Chris_Baker]

Mr Harrington contacted me by email some weeks ago. He told me the story that has now appeared in the WFA Bulletin. I gave the advice that I could (particularly about the way the authorities in France normally handle matters) and have not heard back from him. As told, the story regarding the CWGC does not seem credible.

[ianw]

I would tend to agree with you Chris but there does seem to be fire associated with the smoke of this story. I understand that Paul Kendall who has posted independently above has a particular interest in Bullecourt and the HAC and confirms the story to a large degree.

Interesting to establish how long the remains may have remained interred after the initial excavation that established the ID. I suppose if there are inadequate resources to recover the remains immediately this is the only way to proceed and secrecy will be needed to protect the site.

What also concerns me , having listened to Martin Brown at the Forum Conference this weekend, is the potential contrast with the meticulous excavation and forensic investigation that Martin supervised of an Australian casualty at Messines. This painstaking work will hopefully lead to a positive ID even though there was no "easy" ID evidence associated with the remains.

Hopefully the HAC Cemetery will see the burial of Captain Pritchard with relatives present but what is the story of the other 4/5?. One would wish that they have been disinterred carefully so that they have the best chance of IDs. I don't like the idea of second class casualties.

[apwright]

This *might* be him:

1911 Census

51 Ordnance Road, St John's Wood, London NW

Lodging with the TAYLOR family:

PRITCHARD John Heriot, Boarder, Single, 25, Inspector Of Agents (Insurance Company), b Stonehouse, Glos

PRITCHARD Reuben Ossian, Boarder, Single, 20, Bank (Foreign) Clerk, b Stonehouse, Glos

Now, lots of assumptions here , but assuming these two were brothers, and ignoring the "Stonehouse, Glos" bit, the only Reuben O. PRITCHARD in the BMDs is the following:

1902

1 May, christening of Reuben Ossian PRITCHARD (born 16 Nov 1890), son of Elizabeth & John Samuel, Draper, of 33 Howard Rd, Cricklewood, at Holy Trinity, Kilburn.

1901 Census

33 Howard Rd, Willesden, Mdx

PRITCHARD Elizabeth, Married, 44, School Mistress, b Yeovil, Somerset

PRITCHARD Ethel M, 18, School Teacher, b Lordship Lane, London

PRITCHARD Lily E, 16, School Teacher, b Dulwich

PRITCHARD Daisy G, 12, b Clapham

PRITCHARD Reuben O, 10, b Clapham

PRITCHARD Gladys M, 8, b Clapham

1896

27 Nov, christening of John Harold PRITCHARD (born 25 Mar 1886), son of Elizabeth & John Samuel, Warehouseman, of 25 Hartland Rd, at Holy Trinity, Kilburn.

(2 days earlier, christening of Ernest Walter, son of same, DoB not given, but registered Wandsworth Q4 1887)

1891

Mar Qtr, birth reg. of Reuben Ossian PRITCHARD, Edmonton 3a 277.

1891

3 Bryanstone Rd, Hornsey, Mdx

PRITCHARD John S, 41, Buyer in Lace & Fancy Warehouse, b Cumder, Brecon (?Cwmdare)

PRITCHARD Elizabeth, 35, b Yeovil, Somerset

PRITCHARD Ethel M, 8, b Lordship Lane, London

PRITCHARD Lilly E, 6, b Dulwich

PRITCHARD John H, 5, b Dulwich

PRITCHARD Ernest W, 4, b Clapham

PRITCHARD Daisy G, 3, b Clapham

PRITCHARD Reuben O, 5mo, b Crouch End

1886

Jun Qtr, probable birth reg. of John Harold PRITCHARD, Camberwell 1d 784.

1882

30 May, John Samuel PRITCHARD son of John marries Elizabeth SUGG daughter of Henry, in Cricklade, Wilts

1881 Census

Bon Marche [?department store], Brixton Rd, Lambeth

PRITCHARD John, 22, Salesman Drapery, b Brecon, Wales

[there is the birth of a John Samuel PRICHARD (sic) in Crickhowell district in Q1 1850 which could be him]

No idea where the "Heriot" comes from, or the "Stonehouse, Glos". There are no births registered of any John H or Reuben PRITCHARD in Stroud district...

Adrian

=====================

EDIT: I think this is the other brother Ernest Walter (he's an Oxford undergrad visiting an address in Henley in 1911):

Medal Card of PRITCHARD Ernest Walter

Durham LI - 2/Lieut

RAF - Lieut

Address: Aiken Prep School, Aiken SC, USA.

Ellisisland.org shows that Ernest W PRITCHARD, age 32, arrived at New York from London on 29 Sep 1919, destination Aiken Prep School, Aiken SC, place of birth London, "slightly limp from wound", proposed length of stay: Permanent.

[KevinBattle]

A Google reveals an entry in Cambridge Council archives:-

Huntingdon Borough

Transfer of mortgage of 13 May 1886 for securing £800 (of which £461 19s 5d only remains due). Charles Barclay, esquire, Francis Augustus Bevan, esquire, John Hampton Hale, esquire, and Alexander Lawrie, esquire, all of 1 Bartholomew Lane in the City of London, trustees of the Imperial Life Assurance Fund, to the Alliance Assurance Company Ltd of the same address, the rates assigned by the mortgage.

10 August 1903

HBOX1/34

Which would indicate that The Imperial Life Assurance Fund and Alliance Assurance Company were in the building in 1903... There may be an Insurance company still in existence which swallowed them up that might be interested? I know the City are very strong supporters of the HAC, Army and RBL, so IF (and I stress IF) there is any truth that the remains have not been respectfully treated, then they may be able to add sufficient weight to ensure that these soldiers are buried with full honours, with any family relatives attending and with appropriate publicity.

Why is there such an absence of publicity about finding remains?

Congratulations to Adrian and all others in piecing together this tremendous volume of information in such a short space of time.

I look forward to the correct facts being put forward by CWGC or other authority about what happened to the remains and at some future stage that these 6 will have every effort made to identify them with public burials.

In the meantime, I suppose keep an eye on a certain auction site for any HAC related "finds"......

[apwright]

A bit more on Reuben (probably):

13 January 1924, Mr Reuben PRITCHARD, 33, Bank Official, arrived in London on the SS Kashmir from Bombay. Last Permanent Residence: Baghdad, Proposed Address in UK: Imperial Bank of Persia, 25 Abchurch Lane, London EC3.

Adrian

[Tjap]

This *might* be him:

1911 Census

51 Ordnance Road, St John's Wood, London NW

Lodging with the TAYLOR family:

PRITCHARD John Heriot, Boarder, Single, 25, Inspector Of Agents (Insurance Company), b Stonehouse, Glos

PRITCHARD Reuben Ossian, Boarder, Single, 20, Bank (Foreign) Clerk, b Stonehouse, Glos

Now, lots of assumptions here , but assuming these two were brothers, and ignoring the "Stonehouse, Glos" bit, the only Reuben O. PRITCHARD in the BMDs is the following:

1902

1 May, christening of Reuben Ossian PRITCHARD (born 16 Nov 1890), son of Elizabeth & John Samuel, Draper, of 33 Howard Rd, Cricklewood, at Holy Trinity, Kilburn.

1901 Census

33 Howard Rd, Willesden, Mdx

PRITCHARD Elizabeth, Married, 44, School Mistress, b Yeovil, Somerset

PRITCHARD Ethel M, 18, School Teacher, b Lordship Lane, London

PRITCHARD Lily E, 16, School Teacher, b Dulwich

PRITCHARD Daisy G, 12, b Clapham

PRITCHARD Reuben O, 10, b Clapham

PRITCHARD Gladys M, 8, b Clapham

1896

27 Nov, christening of John Harold PRITCHARD (born 25 Mar 1886), son of Elizabeth & John Samuel, Warehouseman, of 25 Hartland Rd, at Holy Trinity, Kilburn.

(2 days earlier, christening of Ernest Walter, son of same, DoB not given, but registered Wandsworth Q4 1887)

1891

Mar Qtr, birth reg. of Reuben Ossian PRITCHARD, Edmonton 3a 277.

1891

3 Bryanstone Rd, Hornsey, Mdx

PRITCHARD John S, 41, Buyer in Lace & Fancy Warehouse, b Cumder, Brecon (?Cwmdare)

PRITCHARD Elizabeth, 35, b Yeovil, Somerset

PRITCHARD Ethel M, 8, b Lordship Lane, London

PRITCHARD Lilly E, 6, b Dulwich

PRITCHARD John H, 5, b Dulwich

PRITCHARD Ernest W, 4, b Clapham

PRITCHARD Daisy G, 3, b Clapham

PRITCHARD Reuben O, 5mo, b Crouch End

1886

Jun Qtr, probable birth reg. of John Harold PRITCHARD, Camberwell 1d 784.

1882

30 May, John Samuel PRITCHARD son of John marries Elizabeth SUGG daughter of Henry, in Cricklade, Wilts

1881 Census

Bon Marche [?department store], Brixton Rd, Lambeth

PRITCHARD John, 22, Salesman Drapery, b Brecon, Wales

[there is the birth of a John Samuel PRICHARD (sic) in Crickhowell district in Q1 1850 which could be him]

No idea where the "Heriot" comes from, or the "Stonehouse, Glos". There are no births registered of any John H or Reuben PRITCHARD in Stroud district...

Adrian

=====================

EDIT: I think this is the other brother Ernest Walter (he's an Oxford undergrad visiting an address in Henley in 1911):

Medal Card of PRITCHARD Ernest Walter

Durham LI - 2/Lieut

RAF - Lieut

Address: Aiken Prep School, Aiken SC, USA.

Ellisisland.org shows that Ernest W PRITCHARD, age 32, arrived at New York from London on 29 Sep 1919, destination Aiken Prep School, Aiken SC, place of birth London, "slightly limp from wound", proposed length of stay: Permanent.

With all those sisters with middle names an Mt DNA should be possible. or on the Sugg line.

Best,

Howard

[ianw]

Amazing information on the Pritchards in the time it has taken me to go to Wokingham and back.

As I interprete the rather scant info so far, his ID is not in doubt. If he is to be buried soon, it would be great to trace some relatives but this will probably be 6 months work for a whole department at the MOD! No doubt the Forum could do it in 6 days (or less).

[Seadog]

Yet another example of a singular total lack of publicity regarding the discovery of yet more of our countrymen. The hearsay, misreporting and misunderstanding will continue given the complete reluctance of the British authorities to put the facts of these sad finds into the public domain. How many more times is this going to happen until the people who are paid, yes paid to issue press releases like the “Media Manager” employed by the CWGC and who takes great delight in his Fromelles Blog earn their keep and do the job they are supposed to do.

Then of course we have the dubious function of the “Exhumation Officer” again employed by the CWGC whose job I guess is to oversee the proper and competent removal of the remains plus any artefacts that may help with identification. Finally we have the appalling situation that these remains appear to be excavated by local people with the tools they have to hand, comprising mainly it seems of a large shovel.

If there is one thing and one thing only that members of this forum should be lobbying for it is the proper, professional excavation of WW1 soldiers remains by trained people and the taking if a DNA sample where possible which may help to identify the fallen. This should be the minimum treatment that these dead soldiers deserve, anything less is NOT acceptable.

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

I sincerely hope that relatives can be found for Captain Pritchard but what about the others? The CWGC need to assure us that they will be actively pursuing the identication of the other remains found.

[Paul D Kendall]

I think that we have to be patient and not to speculate. The CWGC and supporting organisations have done great work in the recovery, identification and reburial of the Fromelles fallen. The task at Pheasant Wood of recovery was awesome and they should be commended on their efforts which have been done so diligently with care and dignity.

Captain Pritchard and the other soldiers have been recovered and has stated in my previous message they will be buried at HAC Cemetery after the MOD investigation which is being currently carried out. I am satisifed with the communication which I received from the CWGC that they will treat the remains of the fallen found at Bullecourt in the appropriate manner and that they will be laid to rest at HAC Cemetery after the investigation has been completed.

Kind regards

Paul

[Seadog]

Memo to the CWGC and MOD

(1) Join the Great War Forum immediately using a proper identifiable name.

(2) Publish all details of future discoveries of WW1 Commonwealth Soldiers remains on the GWF as soon as is practical.

(3) Utilise the great depth of research skills and UNPAID effort that members of the GWF are willing to expend in order that some of the found may at last be given a name.

(4) Actively encourage members of the GWF to get involved.

(5) Publish FULL DETAILS of impending interments in CWGC War Cemeteries on the CWGC web site in good time for people to attend such events if they so require.

That will suffice for starters.

Regards

Norman

[John_Hartley]

Paul

Thanks for the continuing confirmation that the bodies have been properly recovered and that CWGC/MoD are undertaking their usual processes.

I'll pass the information on to Mike who, I'm sure, will be pleased to hear that all has been above board.

John

(Another helpful and non-inflammatory post there, seadog. )

[ianw]

It will be interesting to see what happens with these remains in the fullness of time.

I suppose we have no choice other than to trust in the CWGC to do the right thing on our behalf. Some people seem to be much more sanguine about this than others.

Given the considerable amounts of "long grass" that exist in organisations such as the MOD and the considerable soccer prowess of those used to kicking inconvenient problems into it , we would do well to watch what happens carefully.

[ianw]

I think that we have to be patient and not to speculate.

Kind regards

Paul

Paul,

Yes, I have some sympathy with this view but the absence of any facts about the disinterment process leaves little scope for anything else. We still need our darkness lightening.

I would agree with your comments about the work at Fromelles but I am not sure that the same standards may necessarily be accorded to those that fell at Bullecourt and elsewhere.

Given that the remains have been successfully removed, there is now no pressing need for secrecy to protect the site. The problem with making everything "secret squirrels" is that anyone trying to establish what has happened can be accused of "speculating". Of course, this is always a "bad" thing from the viewpoint of those that don't want their actions too closely scrutinised.

As you have some knowledge of this and have met the farmer concerned do you know when the remains were discovered, when they were removed and how long this process took. Was it a JCB and spade exercise or a proper quasi-archaeological process taking due regard of potential IDs.

Regards Ian