Captain J.H Pritchard HAC - Burial HAC Cemetery 23.4.13

[Seadog]

(Another helpful and non-inflammatory post there, seadog. )

Thanks john, one of my strongpoints has always been subtlety!

Regards

Norman

[ianw]

One of the joys of this Forum is the position in any argument that one can predict certain pals will take-up!

No doubt, many would include myself in that statement - and I wouldn't dispute with them.

I am pleased that Captain Pritchard and the other casualties are being discussed openly.

[Paul D Kendall]

Ian

If you are interested in such details regarding the process of recovery, you should contact the the CWGC directly.

Paul

[ianw]

Paul,

I have done so but don't share your confidence that they will feel obliged to share details of the recovery process with myself or anyone else for that matter.

Regards Ian

[grantowi]

Army GRO has him as a LT A/Cap in the HAC TF

The ref if any one wants it is Year 1917 / Vol 0.11 / Page 280

The is a John PRITCHARD (b 1897 in Swindon) living in Ashton Keynes (comes under Cricklade) with Parents John and Ellen in the 1891 census. He go's of to marry a Lucy and lives in Southamption in 1911.

Is the Times article the only link we have to Cricklade ?

Grant

[JimSmithson]

Here we are again in the same vein as a few months ago. Remains found, dug around a bit by someone, nobody sure who, everyone having to speculate as to what is happening and all this over a few MONTHS!! I tried to make a point at the Beaurains office in February but they were not very interested. They claimed that everything was done with the utmost respect and great dignity. I explained that we are not doubting their word (well, not quite) but that lack of information will always lead to speculation. Also that there is a lack of clarity about how much effort is made to identify remains. I asked that they officially lodge my concerns through the channels to MOD, they said they would. I am not holding my breath - I am an employee of theirs (MOD that is) so my confidence is not great.

Jim

[dfaulder]

>><<They [beaurains office] claimed that everything was done with the utmost respect and great dignity.>><<

I suspect that we are working with different meanings of respect. Possibly they mean they treat the remains with respect (i.e. try to make sure they pick up all the bits and do not sling them around) and they bury them with formality. Possibly we mean respect the memory and the man and key to that surely is the name by which he was known. To not take available steps to put a name to the remains is showing disrespect.

That said respect costs.

David

[Hywyn]

John Heriot Pritchard

Sgt 403 in 1st HAC

Lt then A/Capt 2nd HAC

NoK? Mrs Pritchard, 84 Marina, St Leonards on Sea

Hywyn

PS

Ian

Are you gathering material?

[ianw]

Hywyn,

I am in no way the official custodian of info on Captain Pritchard. I just started the thread and all the information that I am aware of resides on this thread.

I would hope that relatives will be present whenever he is buried in the HAC Cemetery - an honour and conclusion that he and the men found with him richly deserve. I presume that the MOD are looking for relatives but I have no way of knowing if they are. The sundry researchers of the GWF seem to have a remarkable ability to process this sort of information and could well come up with relatives in parallel with the MOD or even in advance of them.

The general tone is that a good proportion of the posters on this thread are concerned whether enough has been done to identify the men found with Captain Pritchard. Would that the CWGC could allay worries on this front.

I can't imagine that identifying Pritchard taxed them too much given that the HAC only lost 2 Captains in May and the other one by the name of Satchwell went missing in a different area and of course anything initialled with Pritchard would have instantly ID'ed him in any case.

[Tjap]

Since I'm still busy working on the Fromelles fallen I posted a query into the Rootschat.com chatroom and my friend Pat has done a great job tracing Ernest Walter Pritchard. He married late on in life and returned to the UK for a visit with her (Ellen) in 1934. There were Pritchards living in Aikin before Ernest W went there, so it is hard to know whether he and Ellen had any children (she was 14 years his junior so might well have had some children.)

HTH

Howard

[59165]

Has anyone else noted the email from a Michael Carrington on page 49 of the latest WFA Bulletin.

He states that a farmer named Didier at Bullecourt discovered the remains of 6 soldiers who fell in May 1917. Apparently the CWGC identified one of the men as Captain John Harold Pritchard HAC. His pistol and other items were removed and the farmer was told "to leave them in peace". The site is described as having been "excavated".

The farmer is understandably upset that the men have not been removed to a war cemetery. Is it intended that they should be in the future?

The Webley was a real kicker.

If anyone remembers THIS THREAD ,the officer named would be one of the blokes found in the same hole but at a greater depth so,there may be,if luck holds,more than one soldier identified.I cant say myself & I will hold fire until Beaurains have finished their stuff.

After the lambasting that the Brit press got after all the shyte they posted as Fromelles was going on,I find it hard to believe that the WFA would post such unsubstantiated tosh in their periodical without having the common sense to check first.

As to some of this threads posts,the mind boggles

[ianw]

Dave,

Thanks for the link which is most interesting.

I presume that you might now be able to confirm that the site you visited was in Bullecourt?

Am I right that the remains were first discovered in 2006 but that it took until 2009 to disinter them? If so, I can perhaps understand why the farmer may have been less than impressed by the response time!

I note that in the other thread, you suggest that the initially removed remains were of a Queens and a Staffs soldier. You suggest the HAC officer may have been at a lower depth.

Does this stratification and mix of units suggest we may be dealing with a burial pit? Although I suppose that remains put into a deep enough shell-hole or any other hole could be similarly layered.

Most interesting.

[mikkymike]

Hi all

My name is Mike Harrington NOT Carrington, as some have quoted. I will try and put some people right, as to how this story came about.

I first met Didier on a visit to Bullecourt in 2007, while visiting the museum.

Didier tapped on my car window, and beckoned for me to follow him, he took me to the field, and showed me a large stainless steel cylinder, which he said was a British gas cylinder, which he had removed from the ground, during the course of removing this, the heel of a boot came out with it.

He then stopped digging and reported the find to the police.

Bearing in mind that I do not speak French and he does not speak English, but we communicated of a fashion. apparently his father had told him not to plough this small field as their were lots of human remains in the ground, as this was part of the hindenburg line.

The following year on a visit to Arras, I drove to Bullecourt, and knocked on Didiers farm just to see if anything had come of his find.

He informed me that some people had come, he assumed they were from the CWGC or the police, they removed the gas cylinder, and partially excavated the hole it came from, he told me they showed him the wallet and revolver, of a Captain Pritchard, of HAC, then filled in the hole and said leave them in peace, he was not happy, and to be honest I was angry.

I took a small bag of earth from the site, and told Didier I would try and trace any relatives, to pass on the earth and information as to where Captain Pritchard was buried.

When I got home, I wrote to the HAC for information, I also put my finding on this bulletin board.

I later had an email from the HAC archivist, who was very interested in this discovery, and has kept me informed, it seemed to take ages for any progress to be made, and HAC and i did not believe, that the people who took the cylinder and wallet were from the CWGC, they were probably something to do with the police.

During all this time, I and Didier had been corresponding, and it was very difficult, as he was writing in French and I had to get these letters translated, again the HAC archivist was of a great help.

But Didier was still a bit vague, as to what was happening.

I have now been informed by the HAC that the MOD have the 4 body's recovered, plus the wallet and other bits found earlier.

I am now hoping they will identify the other 3 men. I would also like to see the whole field excavated, as their were many men of 3 coy killed in the battle, and as Didiers father told him not to plough this field, I believe this to be the case, as it come straight from the horses mouth as they say.

I have uploaded part of the diary of the Captains last day, its in PDA format. SORRY it won't upload as its too large, but if you want a copy I can email it. mike@m-harrington.com

I hope this clarifies the story behind these posts.

Mike

[Seadog]

Many thanks for the post Mike, I like I suspect many others have been in a complete state of confusion over this topic and your post has gone a long way to make things more understanbable. I am certain there will be additional concerns which no doubt other members will address.

Regards

Norman

[John_Hartley]

Welcome to the Forum, Mike.

Thanks for posting (I rather hoped you would after my email).

As mentioned in one of our exchanges, the most up to date information about Pritchard's descendents, home address, etc will be in his service file at the National Achives - worth you checking that the HAC researcher has that on her "to do" list.

John

[59165]

Dave,

Thanks for the link which is most interesting.

I presume that you might now be able to confirm that the site you visited was in Bullecourt?

Am I right that the remains were first discovered in 2006 but that it took until 2009 to disinter them? If so, I can perhaps understand why the farmer may have been less than impressed by the response time!

I note that in the other thread, you suggest that the initially removed remains were of a Queens and a Staffs soldier. You suggest the HAC officer may have been at a lower depth.

Does this stratification and mix of units suggest we may be dealing with a burial pit? Although I suppose that remains put into a deep enough shell-hole or any other hole could be similarly layered.

Most interesting.

Hello,Ian.

There was a thread on here a short while ago asking where the Crucifix/Calvaire was in Bullecourt & these remains were found about 60 - 100 metres from the Calvaire cross roads in the only field that is circled by the village.It's quite safe ground in comparison to any exterior fields in that it is well overlooked so grave robbery wasn't going to be such a threat.As to it being a burial pit,I can't speculate but it appears that the troops are from diferent periods of the war.There I've gone & speculated....

If Mike's Didier is the owner of the field then I've only met him twice & the opinion I formed of him has been biased by other locals so it's only fair to say that he is a friendly enough chap.I will keep an open mind.

As to searching the whole field for any more bodies,the owner did give permission but who would do it?

We're back to the old catch 22 situ of,'when is detecting legal' plus,for CWGC to do anything,bodies have 1st to be found.The place could be totally empty so I don't expect to hear any more news about this one spot for the forseeable future.

Thanks for the clear up,Mike.Welcome to the forum & if you ever want to meet up there & see Didier,let me know & I'll do the translating for you.

Dave.

[Tjap]

Welcome to the Forum, Mike.

Thanks for posting (I rather hoped you would after my email).

As mentioned in one of our exchanges, the most up to date information about Pritchard's descendents, home address, etc will be in his service file at the National Achives - worth you checking that the HAC researcher has that on her "to do" list.

John

The Aiken Prep School in SC is still going. They may have some information on the family and materials of John's brother Ernest Walter Pritchard that could be helpful for forensic purposes. They are contactable via their website and this would seem a great opportunity for the kids at the school to learn something and get involved in a project.

best,

Howard

[ianw]

Fascinating that this field has had the status of a "no plough" area locally due to human remains being there.

It seems to be in an interesting position surrounded by the village. I wonder what its position was in battlefield terms.

I am still unclear about the timeline here. It seems that the remains were found in 2007 and eventually disinterred in 2009. I would also surmise that the ID of Captain

Pritchard may well have been established soon after the remains were found because his wallet was retrieved early on. If this is the case, I would have thought that there might have been more urgency in recovering his remains.

I suppose that this is not too uncommon a situation in France and Flanders but in such circumstances, is it not time now that these remains should be recovered? The land owner

seems to want this. How can he be accomodated? Would such an action being legal under French law?

[mikkymike]

Hi All

The last address of Captain Pritchard, from the HAC 1915 list is:

19 Cambridge terrace, Hyde Park, and 1 Bartholomew lane EC.

Mike

[mikkymike]

Hi Ian

I do not think its officially a no plough zone, its just that Didiers father advised him to refrain from ploughing, due to the fact that he believes their are lots of bodies in that field, presumably because its was on a main Hindenburg line trench, and right next the the red zone during the battle.

Mike

[mikkymike]

Hi Dave

Thanks for the offer of translating, I am hoping to visit France again in June, and will visit Didier, as his father was taken to hospital to have an operation, so with that and the farm, I would think he's a bit stressed out.

As for the finding of a Queens and a Staffs soldier, where did that come from? I've not heard that mentioned before, as far as the HAC are concerned they are all HAC soldiers. as they lost over 60 men in that battle.

Mike

[ianw]

Mike,

Understood. I wasn't suggesting any sort of official ban on ploughing there - although if your Dad tells you not to plough, I suppose that is official enough for most of us.

Official or not, the local attitude to the field would seem to suggest that there are further remains there.

Ian

[59165]

Hi Dave

Thanks for the offer of translating, I am hoping to visit France again in June, and will visit Didier, as his father was taken to hospital to have an operation, so with that and the farm, I would think he's a bit stressed out.

As for the finding of a Queens and a Staffs soldier, where did that come from? I've not heard that mentioned before, as far as the HAC are concerned they are all HAC soldiers. as they lost over 60 men in that battle.

Mike

Hi,Mike.

The first two out of the ground were found badged to these regiments & one had false teeth that Beauraines thought likely to be traceable.Thats all I heard from Bullecourt on the subject & have no reason whatsoever to question that.As to the officer,I learned that he was found at a lower level & that his Webley had many folks happy as it could only be an officers.As to HAC,how many do they say were theirs out of all found?I felt it prudent not to mention MGC/Lewis gunners etc. carried Web's too but,with his wallet etc.,any doubts must have soon been put to rest.

Let me know nearer to June when you'll be there & we'll meet up.

Ian.The field is about the only one that still shows original damage to it.Like a fallow or grazing field.Too small for crops,I reckon.

I'll see if I can do a Google Earth for you & it may help explain.

ps.Get me Matt B's autograph for the son in law,will you

Dave.

[ianw]

Dave,

Yes, I think I can picture that type of field - pretty much untouched since WW1 no doubt.

I will be coming over for the Fromelles ceremony in July and would like to visit Bullecourt as I have never been there before. I take it you live fairly close by.

(I regret that I haven't seen Matt B since in Teignmouth last year because the supercar club we met through went belly-up. I may see him again when he plays Wembley in September. Problem is I always have back orders for his autograph)

Regards Ian

[grantowi]

I'll ask again to see if I get a reply

Are we now ruling out a connection with Cricklade and any remainig realtives in that area ?

Grant