Collar badges on SD jacket collars.

[Muerrisch]

Headgardener:

I am away from my sources, but Clothing Regulations 1914 were the relevant authority on what was issued to be worn, and Special Army Order 8 of 1902 [this from memory] described service dress.

I believe that I am correct to say that, for infantry at least, collar badges on SD were not sanctioned.

I wonder if Churchill, in his book, has anything to say about the matter. As I rapidly lose interest after 1918, I have no idea when the general introduction occurred. What we do see is a creeping tide of such badges during the war, possibly promoted by regular units seeing so many collar badges on TF and indeed Service battalions serving alongside.

Your question is better than my answer!

Can I take this opportunity to thank you most sincerely for your inputs?

[headgardener]

A couple more.....

This is a North Devon Yeoman in the UK, wearing 'crown' collars (I posted another example on the previous page - it was an NCO with a revolver, if my memory serves me right):

Here's a group of Royal Fusiliers (plus their mascot - a goat - any ideas which battalion this might be....?!) taken in France. It looks like it's winter, and the absence of overseas service chevrons plus the presence of some medal ribbons (14 or 14-15 stars?) suggests that it would be winter 1917-18. All of them are wearing grenade collar-badges:

Incidentally, I don't recognize the cap-badge of the officer in the middle - any ideas? (sorry, I can't get a better image).

[headgardener]

p.s. regarding the North Devon Yeoman - I'm assuming it's a wartime photo, but what do you make of his equipment? This is the full image:

[FROGSMILE]

I'm assuming that this ruling regarding officer-style SD came into effect in 1918? Here's a photo of the RQMS of a Royal Fusiliers service battalion, dated September 1914, wearing Fusiliers collar-badges on an officer-style SD tunic:

one.jpg

I'd assume from this that the RQMS and RSM of most units would have worn collar-badges on this style of SD - would this be correct? Here's an example from (I think) an RSM in the RAMC:

four.jpg

Here's another yeomanry man wearing collar-badges. It's an SSM in the Northants Yeomanry in France in about 1917:

two.jpg

And here's a clip from a group of cavalry men in France in April 1916, while serving with 5th Cavalry Brigade. He's Royal Scots Greys, and is the only one of the group wearing collar-badges (the others being RE, 12/Lancers, 20/Hussars and what I think is 16/Lancers):

three.jpg

Yes the clarification regarding WO1 only wearing officer pattern SD was decreed in 1918 at the same time as the final arrangement of rank badges was promulgated. Within the infantry it seems also to have been laid down that the WO1 (RSM) would have a closed collar as per the original officer pattern from 1902.

It is interesting that the Corps and Departments were often more relaxed about this and had permitted open rever with a collar and tie the same as the officers. The intent behind the closed collar stipulation seems to have been to ensure a differential and also help avoid the confusion of soldiers saluting WOs. Collar badges were worn by the WO1 on the officer style SD, as per officer practice.

I would want to re-emphasise that this was a confusing period for WOs' dress (largely due to funding concerns and the exigencies of war) and, as well as officer pattern, you will see many WOs1 wearing ORs' SD, or ORs' SD with alterations (e.g. pocket flaps and mitred cuffs) made by the battalion tailor, still with the coarse cloth of OR's SD.

[FROGSMILE]

Btw, I've been posting shots of men from various units on this thread and I can see that it is relatively uncommon but not exceptional for men to wear collar badges on SD during WW1. Was there any particular rule or regulation governing this matter? Was it left to the regiment or battalion? Any thoughts?

Officially collar badges were not supposed to be worn by other ranks with SD (shoulder titles being decreed as the only regimental insignia, either in metal (GM) or cloth (originally worsted but printed by the end of the war) but they were worn by officers. It was either, 1922 or 1924 (or perhaps phased between those years) that collar badges were officially sanctioned, at the same time as a smarter (more close fitting) SD was issued.

[Muerrisch]

Indeed! "

Collar badges will not be worn". This is in the specification and description of Service Dress, Other ranks, Army Order 10 of 1902.

Soon honoured more in the breach than the observance of course.

I have looked at Churchill regarding the post-war introduction on OR SD ...... he is, as so often, very vague on the matter.

[Muerrisch]

added Royal Dragoons to my list

[seemingly, to not have worn collar badges may become the Great War exception! I jest, but the list grows and grows.]

[Sinabhfuil]

When did the standing collar come in in Britain, and for which ranks? 

And was it used in US uniforms, and if so, at what point and for what ranks?

(I'm wondering because of the term used in the 1920s in Ireland - "he turned his collar", meaning "he abandoned the Irish Volunteer uniform and joined the Free State National Army".)

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Sinabhfuil said:

When did the standing collar come in in Britain, and for which ranks? 

And was it used in US uniforms, and if so, at what point and for what ranks?

(I'm wondering because of the term used in the 1920s in Ireland - "he turned his collar", meaning "he abandoned the Irish Volunteer uniform and joined the Free State National Army".)

The turning of a collar is a misuse/modification/evolution of the original ‘turncoat’ which refers to a soldier turning his coatee inside out and so wearing it reversed with the lining on the outside, which was the common practice of deserters who went over to the enemy and fought in their ranks, something that dates back to the Marlborough campaigns and the Napoleonic era that followed them.  Most coats were lined with white kerseymere and the uniforms of the Bourbon Army were also white.  Those British deserters who did join the French ranks therefore reversed their uniform to match.  If captured they were almost invariably summarily executed.

The earliest stiff upright collar came with the tunic that replaced the coatee towards the end of the Crimean War in 1854.  An upright collar had been worn previously on the coatee used in various forms since the Napoleonic wars, but it was a much softer collar (without substantial stiffening), that could be turned over if desired.  Instead soldiers had a stiff stock to be worn separately inside the collar.

The US Army wore a similar collar to the latter during the War of 1812 and adopted a similar, more stiffened collar not dissimilar to the British type, in the 1890s.  When they adopted khaki woollen uniforms early in WW1 in order to reflect the European climate, they retained an upright collar rather than the turned over collar adopted by the British for their drab service dress in 1902.

Edited 7 January by FROGSMILE

[Sinabhfuil]

It was to an extent used in this sense, but not always; it often just explained that the person had changed uniform.

[FROGSMILE]

59 minutes ago, Sinabhfuil said:

It was to an extent used in this sense, but not always; it often just explained that the person had changed uniform.

Changing uniforms (your “turning collar”, etc.) to change allegiance, whether simply to another organisation, or another cause altogether, has broadly a similar meaning and I assure you that conceptually, in terms of the expression itself, it all dates back etymologically to turning one’s coat.

As regards which ranks with standing collars - it was everyone, from private man to officer, within the bounds of the periods that I mentioned.

I hope that helps.

Edited 7 January by FROGSMILE

[Sinabhfuil]

Thank you, Frogs. 

I'm not sure what the story is; here's Eamonn Ceannt in Irish Volunteer uniform 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000577019

and Michael Mallin 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000644023

(both of these 1916 or earlier) 

but this 1918 image has a higher collar 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000748447

as has this March 1922 (pre-Civil-War) picture of Michael Collins 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000646113

Here's Richard Mulcahy in the National Army (Civil War) uniform in September 1922

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000218959

Eoin O'Duffy, also in National Army uniform - this and the Mulcahy pic are very definitely the Free State outfit

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000637460

and Michael Collins in National Army uniform during the Civil War, followed by a Fianna Éireann boy 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000239006

while this photo of Michael Walker (who stepped out before the Civil War so would only have worn the Irish Volunteer uniform) seems to have a high collar 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000269692

[FROGSMILE]

41 minutes ago, Sinabhfuil said:

Thank you, Frogs. 

I'm not sure what the story is; here's Eamonn Ceannt in Irish Volunteer uniform 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000577019

and Michael Mallin 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000644023

(both of these 1916 or earlier) 

but this 1918 image has a higher collar 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000748447

as has this March 1922 (pre-Civil-War) picture of Michael Collins 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000646113

Here's Richard Mulcahy in the National Army (Civil War) uniform in September 1922

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000218959

Eoin O'Duffy, also in National Army uniform - this and the Mulcahy pic are very definitely the Free State outfit

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000637460

and Michael Collins in National Army uniform during the Civil War, followed by a Fianna Éireann boy 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000239006

while this photo of Michael Walker (who stepped out before the Civil War so would only have worn the Irish Volunteer uniform) seems to have a high collar 

https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000269692

It’s fairly straightforward really, the upright collars with and without gorget tabs on the officer grade jackets all relate to the first fully regulated and funded uniforms of the Irish Free State after contracts were set up and funding centrally provided by the embryo government.  The soldiers equivalent had a similar collar and at first glance looked not dissimilar to a British soldier’s uniform, but the big difference was pleated breast pockets with scalloped flaps.  However, the leather leggings adopted instead of puttees gave a distinctive Irish look.  This was the uniform of the Irish Civil War. 

All the open necked uniforms with shirt, collar and tie, and manifestly made from a range of different cloths were from before that period of better regulated uniformity marked by the Irish Free State government.  It relates to the time when organising uniform had to go on behind the scenes and so the perfect matching of uniforms, especially for officers, was impossible.  It was also the time when there were more than one group, such as the Irish Volunteers and the Irish Republican Brotherhood, who equipped themselves differently.  Even when they merged as the Irish Republican Army the various groups followed different policies and uniform was not such a high priority as procuring arms.  This was the situation pertaining to uniform of the Anglo/Irish War. 

NB. The artwork showing a mounted officer leading marching troops seems to be wearing the distinctive green of the Irish Volunteers.  The Free State Army uniform was a different and more muted shade. 

Edited 8 January by FROGSMILE

[Sinabhfuil]

Yeah, the calendar from 1918 looks more of a Citizen Army green, and has the Fianna sunburst image, though the Citizen Army weren't likely to be riding horses.

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, Sinabhfuil said:

Yeah, the calendar from 1918 looks more of a Citizen Army green, and has the Fianna sunburst image, though the Citizen Army weren't likely to be riding horses.

I meant to add that there was clearly some artistic licence in that painting.  It is meant to be inspiring and symbolic of the struggle I think.

And these are the uniforms of the earlier Irish Volunteers.

NB.  I’m confident that in the context you queried “changing collar” was just a co-opted euphemism for changing allegiance during the Irish Civil War and not meant in a literal sense. 

 

Edited 8 January by FROGSMILE

[Sinabhfuil]

Thank you, very helpful.