Collar badges on SD jacket collars.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for bringing that to my attention, I hadn't really noticed to be honest. Would the home service frock indicate anything regarding his service, or is it just a Kitchener volunteer affectation? The cuffs (not visible in the cropped image) have the same 'Austrian knot' design as the full-dress tunic. I didn't look too closely at the photo initially. I now notice that he's wearing what appears to be a Police issue 1911 Coronation ribbon (at which point he would have been only 18 years old).

Here's another RAMC man (a bandsman, of course) with collar badges (apologies for the shaky image - the photographer must have been a bit nervous). He was serving with "Provisional Co., RAMC" at Aldershot when this photo was taken (July 1915) and he appears to be wearing a similar frock with collar badges, but he has a pale cap band and an unusual belt-buckle - or is he wearing a St. John's Ambulance uniform?

one.jpg

The home service frock would tend to indicate a pre-war photo. It was the day-to-day working-dress before khaki SD was introduced in 1902. There was usually a trefoil knot on the cuff, yes. It was made of a more coarse serge cloth, had only 5-buttons and was cut with a looser, more comfortable cut to facilitate movement. If he was only 18 he might have just joined the regulars or perhaps TF in the decade before the war.

The bandsmen's collar badge is not RAMC and the white banded cap might well mean he is from St John's Ambulance. I suppose all such organisations tended to have a band in those days before the mass availability of musical media.

[Muerrisch]

Just to add that "frocks", especially TF frocks, are, shall we say, unusually prone to a little regimental [even battalion] idiosyncracy. Also, the scarlet infantry ones came in both five and seven button varieties and even, rarely, six.

[headgardener]

The home service frock would tend to indicate a pre-war photo. It was the day-to-day working-dress before khaki SD was introduced in 1902. There was usually a trefoil knot on the cuff, yes. It was made of a more coarse serge cloth, had only 5-buttons and was cut with a looser, more comfortable cut to facilitate movement. If he was only 18 he might have just joined the regulars or perhaps TF in the decade before the war.

The bandsmen's collar badge is not RAMC and the white banded cap might well mean he is from St John's Ambulance. I suppose all such organisations tended to have a band in those days before the mass availability of musical media.

Just to add that "frocks", especially TF frocks, are, shall we say, unusually prone to a little regimental [even battalion] idiosyncracy. Also, the scarlet infantry ones came in both five and seven button varieties and even, rarely, six.

Thank you both for your comments. The photo was taken in November 1914, so he must be wearing his pre-war TF uniform. When I commented about him being 18 at the time of the 1911 Coronation I meant it in relation to the medal ribbon that he's wearing - I assume it to be the Police version of the Coronation ribbon, but I'm not sure that works with his age, or with the fact that he was in the TF (I believe that Policemen were barred from joining in order to allow them to be available for their civil duties). I'll try posting a crop of the ribbon on the appropriate sub-forum.

I thought that the other fellow was in a St. John's uniform - interesting to note that he was serving in the RAMC at the time the photo was taken (Aldershot photographer, Aldershot army address, Aldershot postmark). I guess that there was still a shortage of uniforms at that stage (July 1915). It was his St. John's bandsman uniform so maybe he was about to play on a parade of some kind and lacked an army bandsman's uniform? I guess that we may never know.

Thanks again, gentlemen...! I appreciate your interest.

[headgardener]

Some more wartime infantry wearing collar badges.....

Gordon Highlanders, dated 1916:

7/R. Inniskilling Fus, at Bordon - therefore late 1915 or very early 1916:

4/R West Kent, in India:

[headgardener]

Yorks R, UK, undated but probably 1915/16:

and another....

S. Lancs R, taken in the UK, could be pre-war but reverse of card looks right for wartime:

Royal Fusiliers at Folkestone, May 1919, awaiting departure for North Russia:

[headgardener]

Some yeomanry....

Northumberland Hussars, August 1914:

Lothian & Border Horse, taken at Windsor in August 1915 (presumably 2nd Reserve Regiment of Cavalry):

Scottish Horse, undated:

[headgardener]

Herts Yeomanry, taken just before departure to Gallipoli (an interesting mismatch of uniform parts):

another, undated (can't make out what's on his epaulette - any thoughts?):

another, dated Feb 1919:

South Notts Hussars (undated, might be post-war, but he doesn't appear to be wearing the 'T' shoulder titles that were introduced post-war...?):

More ASC men......

[Guest]

The second and third 'Herts' might not be Yeomen. I think they might be Hertforshire Regiment (TF) and possibly the Hertfordshire Battalion of the Bedfordshire Regt (TF) for a brief period. There is an old thread on the differences somewhere in the GWF.

Edit: The Hart trippant (walking) was common to the Herts Militia, Herts Bn of the Bedfordshire Regt and the Herts Yeomanry. Later it changed to a Hart lodged. (sitting) MG

[Muerrisch]

Superb additions, thank you.

I am in two minds about the date of the sergeant-major in #80.

His jacket is tailored but is not as fully "officer" as I would usually look for in a RSM pre May 1915, neither is he wearing a Sam Browne, so I think he is a CSM post-date, but something is nagging away ........

[FROGSMILE]

Great photos. I am fairly sure that the South Lancs Regt (POWV) Warrant Officer mentioned by Grumpy is a WOII (CSM). He appears to have a superior cloth (less coarse) service dress uniform that I have read of being issued in the 1920s, although I do not know what precise form this took, but it is especially notable that the lower pockets have pleats, which is very unusual and implies the handiwork of a unit tailor. Had he been a WOI (RSM) it would have been unconscionable for him to not wear a Sam Browne belt, although one very rarely sees such during WW1. The 03 pattern Slade-Wallace belt and parade cane would also imply that the man shown is a CSM.

[headgardener]

A nice example of Manchester Rgt collar badges from late 1918 or early 1919. The MIC's list his rank as CQMS. Interesting shade of uniform and leather(?) cap band. Not at all sure what this indicates though....!

[headgardener]

Some very clear images of Scottish Horse collar-badges, worn with 3 variations in tunic:

Interestingly, all the men in the preceding photos were actually ASC attd. Scottish Horse. The following group photo (taken 1917) shows them wearing a mixture of collar-badges (some wearing Scottish Horse, others wearing ASC):

Edit: in case it's hard to see, ASC collars are being worn by the man centre of the rear row, extreme R of rear row, sitting front row extreme L, the man next to him, and the man sitting extreme R. These men seem to be wearing regular 'infantry' SD jackets instead of the 'yeomanry' issue SD (of which 2 versions can be seen within the group).

[Muerrisch]

#86 made it to Warrant Officer II, presumably to CSM. One up from CQMS. As for the cap-band .......?

[headgardener]

Not very clear, but this one is Denbigh Yeomanry (at least I think it's Denbigh Yeomanry - would appreciate confirmation) in the UK, so presumably another Reserve Regiment of Cavalry...?

[headgardener]

Here's another couple for the collection.

This is a section from a group photo of 35 members of the Guards Machine Gun Regiment - virtually all of them are wearing MGC collar badges together with MGG cap badges:

This one is Essex Yeomanry - I don't have any details on him, the postcard that it's printed on looks right for about 1918 although it's possible that it could be immediate post-war:

[FROGSMILE]

A nice example of Manchester Rgt collar badges from late 1918 or early 1919. The MIC's list his rank as CQMS. Interesting shade of uniform and leather(?) cap band. Not at all sure what this indicates though....!

one.jpg

The officers service dress pattern with closed collar and plain crown badge of rank would be correct for a WO1 circa 1913.

[headgardener]

The officers service dress pattern with closed collar and plain crown badge of rank would be correct for a WO1 circa 1913.

He's wearing overseas service chevrons on his lower R sleeve, so the photo was taken no earlier than 1918 (and he was discharged in spring 1919). I'm assuming from your comment that it was an unusual style of dress for 1918. He does look like a particularly smart individual, and I'm guessing that his uniform was made by a tailor rather than being 'off the peg' - perhaps that would explain the unorthodox cap-band which I imagine must be made of patent leather. I've never seen anything like it before - maybe it's a unique modification?

[FROGSMILE]

On 06/02/2015 at 08:44, headgardener said:

He's wearing overseas service chevrons on his lower R sleeve, so the photo was taken no earlier than 1918 (and he was discharged in spring 1919). I'm assuming from your comment that it was an unusual style of dress for 1918. He does look like a particularly smart individual, and I'm guessing that his uniform was made by a tailor rather than being 'off the peg' - perhaps that would explain the unorthodox cap-band which I imagine must be made of patent leather. I've never seen anything like it before - maybe it's a unique modification?

Yes kicking myself here I should have spotted that, I was too busily focused on his uniform. WW1 was a period of great change for warrant officers badges and there was some confusion. 1918 saw the final changes that gave us the arrangement of badges that we see today. In general WOs2 were not entitled to service dress of officers style (albeit closed neck as required for WOs1). My guess is that he was the RQMS (a WO2) who traditionally had always been dressed very similarly to the RSM (the battalion's only 'Sergeant Major' before 1914) with only the badge of rank different. I have seen such photos before. It was in 1918 that the RQMS badge changed from the plain crown to a crown within a laurel wreath, a badge that previously had only been worn by senior WOs of the ASC and AOC. It was made clear however, that they were not to wear officer style SD, a privilege reserved for just the RSM and Bandmaster.

Edited 17 November , 2023 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

Yes kicking myself here I should have spotted that, I was too busily focused on his uniform. WW1 was a period of great change for warrant officers badges and there was some confusion. 1918 saw the final changes that gave us the arrangement of badges that we see today. In general WOs2 were not entitled to service dress of officers style (albeit closed neck as required for WOs1). My guess is that he was the RQMS (a WO2) who traditionally had always been dressed very similarly to the RSM (the battalion's only 'Sergeant Major' before 1914) with only the badge of rank different. I have seen such photos before. It was in 1918 that the RQMS badge changed from the plain crown to a crown within a laurel wreath, a badge that previously had only been worn by senior WOs of the ASC and AOC. It was made clear however, that they were not to wear officer style SD, a privilege reserved for just the RSM.

Thanks for clarifying that. He was certainly a CQMS in 1916, so it's reasonable to assume that he would have attained RQMS by 1918.

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks for clarifying that. He was certainly a CQMS in 1916, so it's reasonable to assume that he would have attained RQMS by 1918.

Yes, I agree.

[headgardener]

It was in 1918 that the RQMS badge changed from the plain crown to a crown within a laurel wreath, a badge that previously had only been worn by senior WOs of the ASC and AOC. It was made clear however, that they were not to wear officer style SD, a privilege reserved for just the RSM.

I'm assuming that this ruling regarding officer-style SD came into effect in 1918? Here's a photo of the RQMS of a Royal Fusiliers service battalion, dated September 1914, wearing Fusiliers collar-badges on an officer-style SD tunic:

I'd assume from this that the RQMS and RSM of most units would have worn collar-badges on this style of SD - would this be correct? Here's an example from (I think) an RSM in the RAMC:

Here's another yeomanry man wearing collar-badges. It's an SSM in the Northants Yeomanry in France in about 1917:

And here's a clip from a group of cavalry men in France in April 1916, while serving with 5th Cavalry Brigade. He's Royal Scots Greys, and is the only one of the group wearing collar-badges (the others being RE, 12/Lancers, 20/Hussars and what I think is 16/Lancers):

[Jerry B]

Not very clear, but this one is Denbigh Yeomanry (at least I think it's Denbigh Yeomanry - would appreciate confirmation) in the UK, so presumably another Reserve Regiment of Cavalry...?

He appears to have Dragon collar badges which I don't think the Denbighshire Yeomanry wore these.

[headgardener]

He appears to have Dragon collar badges which I don't think the Denbighshire Yeomanry wore these.

Just checked the cap-badge online - it looks more like Glamorgan Yeomanry. Did they have dragon collars...?

[headgardener]

Btw, I've been posting shots of men from various units on this thread and I can see that it is relatively uncommon but not exceptional for men to wear collar badges on SD during WW1. Was there any particular rule or regulation governing this matter? Was it left to the regiment or battalion? Any thoughts?

[Jerry B]

Just checked the cap-badge online - it looks more like Glamorgan Yeomanry. Did they have dragon collars...?

The Glams Yeo did have Dragons on the OR's collars. A nice pic and not commonly seen. I collect to the Welsh regiments and I don't have one for the Glams Yeo yet.