A question for the organisers of the In from the Cold project

[River97]

the content of my original post was changed by Kate but the gist is still the same although i did make reference to the MOD or CWGC as i was unsure which was providing funding, which is synonymous with payment,

there is no malicious rumour, it has proved to be the truth. i posted directly to this forum as the majority here would be able to witness the transparency of my query, i am still interested in how this payment, the amount, who it will be paid to, and how it will be accounted for. This is Tax Payers money

Frankly, you are the only one gives a damn!

These are people willing to spend great deals of their time and money to remember those who gave you the right to ask questions like this.

If the MOD is willing to give them some money for a project like this then good on them. I really don't think the amount involved is going to have that much effect on the current world financial meltdown. Or maybe this was the reason for it!

"If you can read, thank a teacher. If you can read in English thank a Marine."

Cheers Andy.

[Terry Denham]

Chris

I am sorry that you feel the need to duck and dive like this. You are possibly not aware that, as soon as you post, a copy of your post is sent to all those subscribed to that section. Therefore, I have a copy of the post you originally wrote before any editing.

This begins "There has been a rumour going around". How does that stack up with your statement "that there is no malicious rumour"? You have admitted that there is a rumour and the content you subsequently posted (now edited) makes it malicious or at best ill-informed - as the content is patently untrue.

We are all aware that this is taxpayer's money. So was the money that bought flip flops for Torquay police to hand out to drunken women or pays for political jollies around the world. I will make my own judgements on where our tax money is better spent.

You are continuing to make insinuations that something is amiss. What makes you think that the Treasury will not keep a tight control over their funds? In any case, as someone pointed out above, this money is not being spent. It would simply be moved from one Treasury account to another thus making it an excellent arrangement for the taxpayer. Potentially hundreds of British forgotten war casualties get their due commemoration at no ultimate cost to the taxpayer. The money would simply go from one pocket to another (possibly the major reason in the government's mind for any grant being made!). In case you missed it above, no money would be required for anything other than meeting the statutory required payment to GRO for death certificates - everything else is funded by the volunteers themselves though most are helping simply by the valuable donation of their free time.

I assume you do not intend to tell us who passed this rumour to you (a decision which I respect). However, you owe any apolgy to all the Project's volunteers for the allegations you have spread.

[horatio2]

I have never responded to such contentious threads in the past but I am most concerned by the snide undertones of this rumour-led "question".

The question of accountability for "Tax Payers" money is not a matter of responsibility for any member of this Forum or of any of those who participate in the NC project. The responsibility lies solely with the Accounting Officer of the government department concerned. It is for that department to decide what should be paid for with its budget, how such disbursements should be made and on what evidence (invoices, etc). Since no such decision appears to have been made yet, the question is quite academic.

If "harribobs" is concerned about this aspect, he should cease pestering our members (and, I have to say, twisting their words to suit his 'case') and apply to the relevant government department under freedom of information.

I think this thread should be closed as it has contributed precisely nothing other than to impugn the motives of volunteers.

[truthergw]

Rightly or wrongly, I have not taken much interest in the, In from the Cold project. I am aware of it but not of the details. I am not associated with it in any way. The first heading caught my eye and I have followed this thread. To my disinterested eye, it seems that an allegation was made which has been comprehensively denied and in a manner which convinced me, at least. Time to stop digging and apologise, I would say.

[Guest KevinEndon]

As a searcher of tens of thousands of names, taking many hundreds of hours, I am not fussed by what the rumour is, it is simply a rumour. What will be the outcome if Harribobs names the starter of the rumour (if not himself), nothing. I feel they will say it is just a mis-understanding because they heard that funds were to be made (fingers crossed) to the the IFTC Project.

We have been given the chance to tell the world that no money has been given to the searchers or the people who are collating the files which I see as being a good thing.

My question is, what if the searchers were to be paid for giving up their time searching name after name after name. How many people out there do such things for nothing. I bet if money was given to the searchers there would be a heck of a lot more volunteers giving up their time.

Here is something for those who think money is paid to TD or JH to chew on. If they were paid for each person they bring in from the cold I and many like me would carry on because the satisfaction of bringing anyone in from the cold is fantastic.

Kevin

[Terry Denham]

As an aside...

None of this is new. If the possibility of a grant from MoD is news to Haribobs then he has not been following the relevant part of the Forum.

This possibility has been explained and updates posted as and when any information was available (not very often at the speed of government departments) on occasions during the year.

[harribobs]

Chris

I am sorry that you feel the need to duck and dive like this. You are possibly not aware that, as soon as you post, a copy of your post is sent to all those subscribed to that section. Therefore, I have a copy of the post you originally wrote before any editing.

This begins "There has been a rumour going around". How does that stack up with your statement "that there is no malicious rumour"? You have admitted that there is a rumour and the content you subsequently posted (now edited) makes it malicious or at best ill-informed - as the content is patently untrue.

i am not ducking or diving, that isn't my way. there is no malicious rumour as the information i received has proved to be correct, neither ill-informed or malicious, i was informed that members of this group were getting payment or about to get payment from the MOD/CWGC. that has proved to be correct

i don't understand how you see this as malicious, and i have not made any insinuations other than asking for details of the payment

[dycer]

The only additional expense I see accruing from the project to us, as Taxpayers, is that the CWGC may require some additional funding to record and maintain the Names and mortal remains of those who are identified by the Project as casualties of WW1.

It seems a small price to pay unless to ensure transparency,the whole Project is abandoned.

George

[59165]

i was informed that members of this group were getting payment or about to get payment from the MOD/CWGC. that has proved to be correct

Chris.

I've taken quite a few photos in France for quite a few people usually involving quite a bit of mileage & diesel.That most folks offer me the fuel money is nice but I get a kick out of visiting these places anyway so haven't bothered taking any cash from them.

I think you must be confusing 'payment' with 'reimbursement'.

Dave.

[harribobs]

Chris.

I've taken quite a few photos in France for quite a few people usually involving quite a bit of mileage & diesel.That most folks offer me the fuel money is nice but I get a kick out of visiting these places anyway so haven't bothered taking any cash from them.

I think you must be confusing 'payment' with 'reimbursement'.

Dave.

Dave

that is very possible, and is why i've asked for details of the payment

chris

[AlanCurragh]

i was informed that members of this group were getting payment or about to get payment from the MOD/CWGC. that has proved to be correct

How many times do you need to be told? Members of the project aren't getting a penny, the money (if it happens) will be between one gov't department and another

Alan

[Terry Denham]

There will be no reimbusements of anything to members. Only the cost of death certificates will be met - and only IF there is a grant.

This has been stated several times in this thread but there is obviously some ulterior motive at work requiring the continued spreading of disinformation.

[lionboxer]

Here we go again, another Forum storm in a tea-cup. A question was asked (possibly mischeviously) and a question answered (satisfactorily in my mind). I should have thought we would all have been cheering with the knowledge that official funding will be (hopefully) given for this honourable cause. I, like many others have spent untold amounts of money on our various research projects and our reward has been in the results of this work, but to have had a little help with the financial outlay would have been very welcome.

Carry on TD and Crew, your work is invaluable.

Lionboxer

[alliekiwi]

So basically, the point of the funding (if it goes ahead) is that rather than members of the group paying for the death certificates which are required to prove a case, the MOD will pay for them...but pay the money straight to the GRO?

Seems simple to me.

Allie

[Terry Denham]

Allie

You have it in a nutshell. However, I cannot comment about the actual mechanics as, until such a grant exists, the processes have not even been discussed. Your scenario would seem to be the most likely though.

[harribobs]

There will be no reimbusements of anything to members. Only the cost of death certificates will be met - and only IF there is a grant.

This has been stated several times in this thread but there is obviously some ulterior motive at work requiring the continued spreading of disinformation.

Terry

i am not spreading disinformation but asking for more information

[harribobs]

Allie

You have it in a nutshell. However, I cannot comment about the actual mechanics as, until such a grant exists, the processes have not even been discussed. Your scenario would seem to be the most likely though.

but you have applied for funding on that basis? and you have applied on behalf of the group?

[George Armstrong Custer]

Terry

i am not spreading disinformation but asking for more information

I don't think I've seen such serial disingenuousness since Comical Ali, the Iraqi Information Minister, was broadcasting during the allied invasion.

You've brought up the fact that your original post was edited with the suggestion that this has misrepresented your motives. But it was your original post which I and others responded to in the early hours of this morning. To refresh your memory, you originally titled this thread "'Payments to Terry Denham and John Hartley for finding non coms". Your first post also fingered these two individuals and went on to imply that they were receiving payments for research which was largely down to the combined efforts of many researchers in the In from the Cold project who were doing it for nothing. Further, when I commented on the inadvisability of your posting rumours on the forum you came back to say that "maybe i am being a little kind calling it a rumour" - thereby suggesting that the implications of your thread title and opening post were built upon firm information.

For you now to claim that from the outset you have merely been asking for information is just not on. When you find yourself in a hole you should stop digging.

[Terry Denham]

Chris

Why are you asking for more information? You are not a member of the Project. You do not help in its work. How does it affect you?

The implication is that, because you believe you do not have some piece of information then something underhand must be happening. You made no attempt to find out what you wanted to know yourself. You simply posted an item containing unfounded allegations against individuals and the Project members as a whole. No amount of twisting by you can avoid the suggestion that you have some ulterior motive. We would like to know what it is.

As it happens, you have all the information that anyone has - including myself. I have been waiting for an answer for MoD for the four months since we applied!

All members of the Project are informed of events when they happen. That is only right and proper. If you want more information please send me an email and I will happily pass anything significant to you when it happens/if it happens.

Better still. Why don't you contact John and volunteer? Then you will be in the front line at all times and will know what is happening as it happens!

I can confirm the application is in the name of the Project. Why would you think otherwise?

[John Morcombe]

It is a great shame that Terry & all the IFTC project volunteers have to endure such ill-informed & poorly presented questioning.

The personal expenses of volunteers are not met by the mere cost of the death certificates. Who do you think pays for the acquistion of other documents neccesary in each case? Not to mention postage & travel costs.

I spent a bleedin' fortune chasing up the 160 odd Naval & Royal Marine cases for CWGC presentation, even though I sourced funding for the death Certificates via a Sponsors' Campaign.

IFTC volunteers are always going to be out of pocket for their sins.

Is there always going to be some rumour monger queering the pitch? I would require an apology of extraordinary magnitude, or a free punch up their bracket (latter preferred).

[Chris_Baker]

I believe Terry and John 100%, for what it is worth.

But even if they had applied for and been given some kind of "reward" over and above the cost of death certificates - so what? It is no concern of mine or yours. If anything, I would congratulate them on having wrung funds out of a very tight system for something that is very worthwhile. It would hardly be winning the lottery, would it?

[Guest KevinEndon]

Harribobs, why dont you become a volunteer, spend hours searching and spend all the cash we are getting on whatever you wish.

Money has been asked for to pay for death certs, this has been the plan from day 1. I have found around 30 iftc men and around 60 who did not meet the CWGC criteria, there is no way I would pay for that amount of certs. The death certs already paid for have came from a forum members kind generous donation, there are many more iftc men which need the certificates bought and this is what the possible funding is for, nothing else. No new BMW for TD, Merc for JH and minis for all the other searchers. I feel you are trying to make a moutain out of a molehill and stirring something up that isn't there.

K

[alliekiwi]

I think it all comes down to this:

we have always paid for all our research into non coms ourselves on the manchesters group

[Terry Denham]

As a matter of interest - so has IFCP. One of the 71 names accepted to date (pre any grant) is a Manchester Regiment man.

[harribobs]

Chris

The implication is that, because you believe you do not have some piece of information then something underhand must be happening. You made no attempt to find out what you wanted to know yourself. You simply posted an item containing unfounded allegations against individuals and the Project members as a whole. No amount of twisting by you can avoid the suggestion that you have some ulterior motive. We would like to know what it is.e front line at all times and will know what is happening as it happens!

i am neither twisting nor turning,

i understood you were receiving payments, you have stated that you have applied for funds, but you don't seem sure on how these payments will be processed or how much they will be. Other people on the thread have stated it will just be a transfer of funds between government depts but you don't seem certain about this

i have an interest, i am a member of this forum as you and the rest of your group are, i see no reason why i shouldn't ask a question regarding your funding. it is not a personal insult but you seem to have taken it that way