A question for the organisers of the In from the Cold project

[SiegeGunner]

I recall that there was a right old hoo-ha some while ago about different projects that collect and supply photos of headstones and cemeteries. One of the organisations had entered into a sort of partnership agreement with CWGC and the controversy centred on whether was making a charge for photographs or merely asking for donations to support its work. The 'objectors' were mostly associated with other projects that supply photos at no charge, and volunteer photographers who did not want requesters to be charged for photos they had supplied at their own expense.

Is there a similar 'competitive' situation here? There are other groups and individuals that put forward apparent non-comms for consideration. They evidently bear their own costs, including the cost of obtaining death certificates. If the IFTC project's application to be relieved of the cost of DCs by means of an intra-departmental transfer of funds is successful, will that arrangement apply exclusively to IFTC, or will everyone who successfully puts forward a non-comm be relieved of the cost of the DC, or be reimbursed for it (depending on the mechanism adopted) ?

It seems to me that there may be a valid point for discussion here, but the scurrilous fashion in which it was raised is shameful.

[harribobs]

As a matter of interest - so has IFCP. One of the 71 names accepted to date (pre any grant) is a Manchester Regiment man.

you'll be no doubt pleased to hear that we have recently had another MR soldier commemorated as well

[Terry Denham]

Chris

You are choosing not to listen. Again, I question your motives.

We have not discussed the mechanics of the funding as, until it exists, there is no point. No doubt, the Treasury will tell us how it will work if they accept the application.

There is no doubt other than in your mind, apparently.

Congratulations on your latest man. Keep it up.

To answer Siege's point, if any grant is given it will be for the applicant (IFCP) to obtain DCs for their systematic search for in-service non-coms and for no other purpose or group. This was covered recently elsewhere on the forum.

[Doug Lewis]

To add my pennys worth I am also one of the searchers for the IFTC project and I will reiterate what has already been said so it is public for all to see. I and other searchers receive not a penny, nothing, nowt! I do it for free, I give my hours for free; and will continue to do so.

Regards Doug.

[stevem49]

If the people doing the checking are being paid - Could I have mine in Euros please

We volunteer to check all the GRO records against the CWGC list for missing men. I have done about 11,000 names so far. I neither want or ask for thanks, money, Christmas cards or anything else for that matter. The funding (If we get it) is to speed the process along (buying Certs). Perhaps we should be asking the holders of certificates to let us have them for nothing. I mean - We will ( possibly get) get money off one Government dept and give it to another.

I doubt the cost will make much of a dent in any departments funds. Certainly no were near the millions just given to a foreign country or wasted on various projects:rolleyes:

sm

[burlington]

What really gets me is that volunteers, who spend many £, $ etc of their own money to help other people. or the GREATER GOOD, are castigated because they ask for some minor reimbursement of 3rd party costs.

Please, get real. If all these volunteers for whatever project did not do what they do, would YOU do it?

If YOU would, please get your hands out of your pockets and get stuck in. Otherwise, kindly hold your own counsel.

Martin

[59165]

There will be no reimbusements of anything to members. Only the cost of death certificates will be met - and only IF there is a grant.

This has been stated several times in this thread but there is obviously some ulterior motive at work requiring the continued spreading of disinformation.

I mentioned the word reimbursements in a placatory way to Chris who seemed to be digging a hole for himself.I was under the misapprehension that when someone had payed out 500 quid on certs,they would get that back dated.Sorry for the confusion as I just skip read the whole thread.After a re read,I now understand what you mean

Dave,totally without ulterior motives

[Kate Wills]

I hope all is now clear, and while we are talking matters finacial, may I just point out that the GWF carries news of the IFTC and many other projects and research queries, plus general questions such as this. Both parties have been provided with a platform to conduct this exchange for £0.00 because membership here is FREE.

The GWF's hosting costs have rocketed since the summer due to increased costs and the exchange rate. Our November bill demanded £213.00 and we expect our December bill (due this week) to be even more.

If, at this finacially demanding time of year, you can assist with our finances, please visit the GWF's donations page:

http://www.greatwarforum.com/donations.asp

[Terry Denham]

Dave

I did not take anything from what you posted. Don't worry.

However, to clarify for those that wish to know....

IFCP has had about half a dozen unsolicited donations (two of them in excess of £200) from volunteers within the Project and from without. These were given freely without request and arrived on my doorstep unannounced. All have been used to buy the early DCs.

Nobody has asked for reimbursement and none is planned for these sums. The idea had actually not occured to me before your post above! Any grant will be for obtaining future DCs.

As was stated elsewhere on the Forum, if anyone finds an in-service UK casualty they believe to be a non-com on the evidence they have to hand, they can, if they wish, funnel it to IFCP who will obtain the DC and take the case forward in due course. The logic of this being that we would probably have found the name eventually ourselves (but we are not foolish enough to believe that we will find every one!).

[Hywyn]

There are other groups and individuals that put forward apparent non-comms for consideration. They evidently bear their own costs, including the cost of obtaining death certificates. If the IFTC project's application to be relieved of the cost of DCs by means of an intra-departmental transfer of funds is successful, will that arrangement apply exclusively to IFTC, or will everyone who successfully puts forward a non-comm be relieved of the cost of the DC, or be reimbursed for it (depending on the mechanism adopted) ?

As someone who comes across the occasional Non Comm within my area of interest I would be interested in the answer to this one as well. However I can see a big difference in the IFCP discoveries and those that I find inasmuch as if the man has the overseas GRO reference then he is a serving soldier and it's 'case proven' whereas the majority of mine are discharged men whose cause of death may or may not be related to the cause of discharge. Luckily for me my Registrars Offices will tell me what I want to know prior to purchase. I've always assumed that my 'work' is not within the parameters set out for the IFTCP. If I have got this wrong I would be pleased to know so that I can set up the required channel (probably be the same..via Terry?)

Hywyn

Ooops, should have carried on reading the posts before posting. I see my query is answered. Sorry

[harribobs]

What really gets me is that volunteers, who spend many £, $ etc of their own money to help other people. or the GREATER GOOD, are castigated because they ask for some minor reimbursement of 3rd party costs.

Please, get real. If all these volunteers for whatever project did not do what they do, would YOU do it?

If YOU would, please get your hands out of your pockets and get stuck in. Otherwise, kindly hold your own counsel.

Martin

as a group, we pay our own costs including DCs and expenses, we are currently asking for donations for research work to be donated to

National Gulf Veterans and Families Association

Which is an independent registered charity aiming to support those who served in the 1990-91 and 2003 (to date) Iraqi / Gulf conflicts, either in the armed forces or as a civilian, and their families and dependants.

http://www.ngvfa.com/

Or:

http://www.combatstress.org.uk/

The Ex-Services Mental Welfare Society, Combat Stress, exists to serve these men and women. For over 80 years, we have been the only services charity specialising in helping those of all ranks from the Armed Forces and the Merchant Navy suffering from psychological disability as a result of their service.

[John_Hartley]

To refresh your memory, you originally titled this thread "'Payments to Terry Denham and John Hartley for finding non coms". Your first post also fingered these two individuals and went on to imply that they were receiving payments for research which was largely down to the combined efforts of many researchers in the In from the Cold project who were doing it for nothing. Further, when I commented on the inadvisability of your posting rumours on the forum you came back to say that "maybe i am being a little kind calling it a rumour" - thereby suggesting that the implications of your thread title and opening post were built upon firm information.

I'm indebted to you, George, for posting a flavour of the original. Bearing in mind the edited version, I had wondered what on earth what Kate might have had to delete.

I'm still amazed about how these rumours start. And, perhaps more to the point, why they start. No doubt, harribobs heard about it about it via a friend of a friend, so to speak.

But obviously not one who seems to have any contact with any Project volunteer, as none of us had heard the so-called rumour before this thread. Funny that.

Perhaps we should not lose too much sleep over this and just put it down to some ill-considered mischief-making on someone's part for reasons unknown.

As mentioned a number of times up-thread, the details of what the Project is doing and the basis for our funding bid had been discussed on several occasions, usually in the Forum's "non-commemoration" section. It's there for all to see.

Perhaps this silliness has encouraged you to think about becoming a volunteer? No promises of holidays in the Bahamas, or new car, or even re-imbursement of expenses. But I can promise one heck of a buzz when your first non-comm gets accepted by CWGC/MoD. Just get in touch and I'll set you to work.

John

[chrisharley9]

The buzz John talks about happens every time I get one in from the cold - which is more than once

Chris

[John_Hartley]

The buzz John talks about happens every time I get one in from the cold - which is more than once

You're right, Chris. It never goes away. The ones I've found through the Project I think of as "my lads", almost as much as the local Stockport men I've found (which, of course, I've funded myself).

John

[chrisharley9]

Likewise all of mine although I now have £50 to play with for future RN cases courtesy of my local RNA

Chris

[John_Hartley]

well maybe i am being a little kind calling it a rumour

And, maybe, a little defamatory in suggesting it isnt a rumour.

Do you have any money that it would be worth Terry & I sueing you for - seeing as some readers will have seen your original unedited wording?

[stevem49]

Just had the newsletter and list of finds (thanks John).

I see that I have a find who is now commemorated on Le Touret. I am so chuffed that I could buy a round (well a shandy with lots of straws)

Thomas S W Cooke will never be forgotten.

Makes all the hours worthwhile.

sm

[Neil Mackenzie]

I can understand people being put out for having to spend their own money on DC's to right the wrong of non-commemoration. But the fact that this situation exists is NOT the fault of the IFTC project or any of its members - if this is the cause of some bad feeling (and I emphasise the IF) then people are tilting are the wrong windmills.

Indeed, anyone doing this sort of work should be cheering Terry and John on in their efforts to obtain funding. Our bureaucrats love a precedent and if Terry's efforts meet with success (again emphasising the IF) it can only make things easier for people in future trying to do something similar.

Neil

(member of IFTC team - although been rather tardy of late)

[Julie w]

I think its about time they got some reimbersement for what they do.Its a disgrace that volunteers have to do this kind of work on behalf of the country.keep up the good work!

cheers julie

[Greyhound]

All I have to say is that if one government department requires a copy of a document held by another government department, it seems sensible, logical and fair for the latter department to supply it - without making a charge to the member of the public who has voluntarily done most of the work on the case. I hope this gets approved.

I cannot for the life of me see how this can be interpreted as receiving "payment".

[shinglma]

I cannot for the life of me see how this can be interpreted as receiving "payment".

Me neither. It seems a peculiar slant to put on it.

Good luck to them if they get this limited funding. Anything which removes obstacles to this work is to be welcomed IMHO.

Mike Shingleton

[Kate Wills]

Chris,

You are possibly not aware that, as soon as you post, a copy of your post is sent to all those subscribed to that section. Therefore, I have a copy of the post you originally wrote before any editing.

This begins "There has been a rumour going around". ...

Really?

I thought that suscribing merely alerted the recipient to a new post, not to its contents.

According to the Help page "You are also able to subscribe to each individual forum on the board, to be notified when a new topic is created in that particular forum."

[Terry Denham]

Kate

The subscription notification consists of the full post and always has done. It only sends one post (the latest I think) and there may be others preceding it which do not get sent.

As an example, here is the last one I received.....

"andy pugh has just posted a new topic entitled "17th Bn R/Fusilier casualty" in forum "Cemeteries and memorials".

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi All, Merry Christmas to you all!

Could anybody tell me how a soldier by the name of Jack, Monk (Private) Service number PS/11371 17th Bn Royal Fusiliers was entered as being killed on the 26/3/1918 on the C.W.G.C (Casualty Details Site),and is buried in Bancourt Cemetery,when his Battalion was by this time as far back as the Beaucourt Road on the old Somme Battlefields.Surely they wouldnt have transfered his body all that way back to Bancourt Cemetery when there so many other cemeteries near where they were fighting.Also can someone tell me what the PS stands for in front of his service number?

Regards Andy.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Kate Wills]

Thankyou Terry.

Each to his own, but if you are logged into the Forum all day I don't see the need to bombard an overworked Inbox with a continuous avalanche of notifications.

[keithmroberts]

Enough already.

Whatever brought this issue to Harribobs attention there has been a clear explanation.

If the two departments confirmed, come to an arrangement that will be great. Equally if they failed to do so and MOD made a modest subvention for this work, then as has been said already it would need to be very clearly accounted for, and a method for this accounting would need to be acceptable to the MOD.

Its surely equally clear that no individual contributing to the work of identifying the non coms is making any money or expects to, and that clearly applies also to the Manchester Group to which Harribobs refers.

The initial post was to say the least ill considered in its wording, and an apology for that would be in order and gracious.

Because we have had many posts about the work of the one group, there is every reason to anticipate that we will be informed by them if their approach is successful. Not that they have any obligation to this forum or to anyone else other than a funding body, in respect of their approach. If they are successful any administration of funds would depend on conditions set by the granting department, and any requirement to publish would depend on those conditions.

I hope the application is successful, and that both groups, and any others engaged in this work are able to get on with it without any more unfortunate "rumours".

Keith