Metal Detectors in France

[Guest jumberly]

Preservation is not the key. Nor is banning archaeological investigation. Nor is banning farming (although farming methods ie deep ploughing could looked at).

At the end of the Great War, Churchill wanted Britain to 'buy' Ypres as a memorial, I wonder why? Something worth remembering forever must have happened there.

What if you could walk anywhere, what if information was readily available on site.

What if?

Just look at the monies raise recently in appeals. How many people across Europe and the Globe are directly involved in those tragic events of 1914-1918.

Further to Deville Wood, I am a Deputy Headteacher, my friend who was there with me is a Headteacher, and we saw what we saw.

[dycer]

Paul,

Thank you for the clarification.

I'm still of the view that theoretically everything should be left alone or cleared professionally.

I appreciate though there are many general items(e.g shrapnel balls) which would be found during any professional search and the debate is then should they be sent for scrap or sold/given away as you describe?.I go for the latter.

George

[dycer]

jumberly,

I don't wish to hog this debate and hope others join in soon!

I am not keen on a WW1 Theme Park a la Disney!

The War was fought to ensure people were free to pursue their lives as they saw fit.

Certain areas were put aside at the end of the War to mark the sacrifice.Why should we extend these now?

George

[Paul Reed]

One step at a time.  But you tell me....why not?

Farming is in depression, land prices have never been lower.  Zone Rouge could be a european park.  Mad yes. 

But why not.

It just takes the will and the organisation to force the issue.

For now the aim is on 5 specific sites.

I am afraid you have got your facts wrong about the Somme; I can't comment on the Pas de Calais or Nord. Land and property values are on increase here; and I don't see any sign of any local farms in decline in the way you imply.

What five areas have you in mind?

[KIRKY]

Further to this , I noticed when visiting the Museum in Albert that the prices for relics were very very high.

They used to be really cheap and worth buying but now! it does not encourage anyone to buy here but to look elswhere perhaps from a dodgy source?

I do not like buying relics anyway- Ilike to find them myself, without a detector or without digging and without destroying crops!

Tony

[Guest jumberly]

I am always amazed at the breadth, variety and depth of knowledge on ‘The Great War Forum’, but as you can imagine as you step away from the specifics of WW1, the knowledge deteriorates. Yes, property values are on the increase but agricultural land prices have dropped by 23% in real terms in the last 5 years making it the cheapest in Western Europe. Agriculture is in chronic decline in France with farm incomes and farmgate prices dropping, forcing the French government to offer subsidies to get people back on to the land. (Centre National pour l'Aménagement des Structures des Exploitations Agricoles (CNASEA): contact the head office at 7 rue Ernest Renan, BP 1, 92136 Issy les Moulineaux Cedex (01.46.48.40.00, www.cnasea.fr). 63% of farming on ‘the Somme’ is via communes, hence when the Somme Airport was announced 6 ‘Somme’ communes fought to have the airport built on their land to get their people out of crippling debt. (http://www.lemonde.fr/ and http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/home.shtml) Please use the above resources.

European economics is a field I have some little knowledge of. My own house lies between Hesdin and Doullens, here farm land is not sold, its actually abandoned. I bought the farm for the house and can't give the land away! Might buy a goat.

[Guest jumberly]

jumberly,

I don't wish to hog this debate and hope others join in soon!

I am not keen on a WW1 Theme Park a la Disney!

The War was fought to ensure people were free to pursue their lives as they saw fit.

Certain areas were put aside at the end of the War to mark the sacrifice.Why should we extend these now?

George

I am not keen on a WW1 Theme Park a la Disney!

The War was fought to ensure people were free to pursue their lives as they saw fit.

Certain areas were put aside at the end of the War to mark the sacrifice.Why should we extend these now?

The New Forest National Park... don't remember Micky Mouse there, perhaps I missed him. Emotive language doesn't help. Little would change. Farming must continue otherwise land reverts to scrub. (note: grazing sheep at Beaumont Hamel). But a British/European Charity would have massive politrical 'clout'. Imagine walks properly posted, informative texts (Interesting aside... Met up last year with a couple of Australians visiting Bernafay Flat Iron and later five lads from RWF at Flat Iron, both groups commented that they would have liked more detailed information on what actualy happened at each location than was provided. Yes, the could have bought a book, but if we all bought maps we wouldn't need roadsigns.

The Great War wasn't fought to ensure people were free to pursue their lives as they saw fit.

Great Britain, although strongly urged to, didn't put aside areas other than graves. Other countries, to their credit did.

Why now? There has never been such a threat to the archaeological remains as there are to day. Ask the metal detectorist with their hoards of shrapnel balls etc. or those who quietly dig out trenches and dugouts. There is no excuse for looting the battlefields for profit or to fill personal collections. As Paul says, the LAW is the LAW, there can be NO exceptions.

[dycer]

jumberly,

I appreciate where you are coming from but I'm still not convinced.

I have to say I found my visit to Vimy Ridge a bit disappointing.To my mind the visitors did not appreciate the reality of what happened on the site and indeed the vegetation hides a lot of the scars.

I have to come back to Paul's point we cannot save everything so why bother.

I accept the serious researcher would like to retrace the action on the actual ground but in many cases this is impossible.

I have another relative buried in a named grave.He died of wounds "holding the line" in January 1915.He was,therefore,not involved in a major action.I see no reason to preserve the trench he was wounded in(even if it survived) and I cannot imagine many researchers wanting to retrace his footsteps.I am content enough to make the occasional visit to his grave and note how he and his colleagues have become part of village life.He lies in a civilian graveyard.

I have not visited the IFF Museum but I have visited the WW1 Exhibition in the Imperial War Museum in London.I think this gives a greater understanding of the reality of WW1 rather than seeing preserved Battlefields 90 years on.

George

[Guest jumberly]

Thanks for your comments. Couldn't agree more about Vimy, although I have met many who think it's great.

No intention of preserving trenches, although I found some on the Somme Front that are still over 7 feet deep in places.

Think about the national parks in the UK. It's not preservation so much as protection (which is why some won't like the idea) and access.

Your points are well made though and it's through such debate that effective planning is made.

[dycer]

jum,

Excuse the informality but you name takes an age to type

As my Office window looks out on to the Peak District National Park I fully support your vision.

I suppose the question is?Is the Somme area now to fragmented to create a National Park.I do see from other posts that the Verdun area seems more undisturbed and would be possibly easier to impose planning restrictions for future development.

Kind regards

George

[Guest jumberly]

No problem, and it's Dave.

Yeah, you're right again. The boundaries our Parks are formed through geology, the Somme Battlefield through misery.

We need to think of it as making a patch work quilt. Putting the patches in place one at a time (it'll never be finished - sadly). The trick is which 'patches' first? Those endangered as in Neuve Chappelle and Loos? Key places? Most visited places? Most emotive? We've been slowly putting this together for three years.

The thing is, if you're a stuggling farmer and BMW offer money to build on your land you gladly accept. If it's in trust for the British/Commonwealth/French/German people the answer would be no. Try the diggers site http://www.wo1.be/diggers. Boezinge..... The number of lost soldiers they recovered before the area was covered in concrete for factory units was startling - if they hadn't been there that whole site would have gone and the missing would have remained so. But remember - someone owned the site and sold it. Now it's lost forever.

[Paul Reed]

I am always amazed at the breadth, variety and depth of knowledge on ‘The Great War Forum’, but as you can imagine as you step away from the specifics of WW1, the knowledge deteriorates.

I am afraid such a broad and arrogant statement does little for your cause, or people's sympathy towards it - certainly not mine. I also find it quite strange that you have chosen not to post any of this under your real name. It is easy to snipe when you can hide under an assumed identity, and we have seen that several times on this site.

While there are aspects of what you say which we would all agree with, you are asking French people to give up their rights to their property and land, and their right to do what they like in their own country. If you can't see that would be a problem, then you need to spend more time in France. French politicians would never agree to anything like this: especially as a high propportion of French land has been affected by battles and conflict: it would open up a can of worms no French government could survive. Surely?

[Guest jumberly]

Firstly, I am at the moment selling my house in the UK. When I do, I give up all rights to that property and land. The new owners by Act of Parliament and Common Law assume those rights. The same is true in France, as a home owner there I'm sure you know. Ownership of land entitles rights to those lands. As a British subject and therfore through default, a member the EU, I or a registered charity have those same rights in France under both French and European law.

I would never presume to correct you on the Great War, an area you clearly have a vast knowledge and understanding. Yet, you seem to be able to do that to me.

The majority of this forums' members use a "handle'. As a webmaster I'm sure you know that if you email me I would be more than happy to provide my name, address or any other detail of my rather ordinary life you might desire.

I'm sure there is no need for handbags at dawn. As for french politicians they are no different from ours, except most speak better English.

[dycer]

Dave,

I know this has become a bit convoluted but as I now understand it you are advocating the creation of a system of National Parks in France similar to the ones in the UK.In order to achieve this you want to enlist our support as we have an interest in the Battlefields of France.

I have no knowledge of the "tensions" between Landowners in France and the desire for people to have the "right to roam" but I am aware of the historical and ongoing problems that exist in the UK.

One of the Rules of this Forum is that we do not involve ourselves in current politics.What you seek is support for a political cause in France.

I would be happy, if as a result of your campaign ,I was able to freely walk through High Wood should I wish to and assuming it is safe to do so because a relative fought there.I ,however, cannot allow you to use my name to forward your campaign because I want the freedom to be able to walk through High Wood.

George

[Guest jumberly]

Thanks for your reply George. Yes it’s all getting a bit out of hand/confused/etc.

Let me clarify.

We hope to shortly form a charity/trust that will have the financial clout to buy parcels of land in both France and Belgium. These parcels of land will be important historically and hopefully as money is finite appropriate. We became tired of one area after another going under concrete and tired of everyone saying ‘what a disgrace, lets form a petition, something should be done’.

They won’t be National Parks, the Charity will own them. The aim would be to maintain and protect it, not preserve it.

No huge nationalist ceremonies/monuments will be built, nothing political.

If High Wood was one of those parcels ( ONLY using it as an example, it’s not up for sale, before anyone jumps in!), it would remain as it is now, but you and anybody else would have the right to visit it, roam within reason, and hopefully understand the conflict there better through, perhaps information panels etc.

Lochnager Crater is a brilliant example.

Does that help?

Dave

[dycer]

Does for me Dave.

I'll sit back and see what the other sceptics say

George

[Rob Gray]

I have heard that the Irish contingent that are now running (very well in my opinion), the Ulster Tower near Thiepval have bought up Thiepval Wood..??

If so, they presumably will open it up to visitors..?? - I have always stayed outside the wood when in the area as during the hunting season, (October to February), as the likelyhood is that you will disturb a party of local Frenchies engaged in "La Chasse", and being a keen shooter myself in the UK, there's nothing more frustrating than seeing the birds that you have painstaikingly reared all year long being flushed out by ramblers who should know better..!!!!

[Bert Heyvaert]

Paul,

the time I found these men is a long time ago.  When nobody heard of laws against metal detecting, or needing a liscense to operate one.

Now we have to be at least amateur-archeologists to be allowed to operate one.... says the law.  In Belgium, the police is not the most strict police of Europe.  We are allowed a lot of things.  I know people are being harrassed by the police, but we are way better of than the French.

Whenever policemen overhere see someone digging with a metaldetector, they pretend they haven't seen him, and proceed on their way.  So we can get away with it easy.

I am not saying everybody should get a metaldetector, jump on a ferry and come overhere and dig all the fields upside down... Then they would make a problem out of it (and the farmers also I have the idea).

They allow a small amount of people on the fields, when nobody is overacting, and digging enourmous holes without filling them in again.

It is just: reasonable people do reasonable actions, and when there is no profit, overacting or theft from found soldiers, the police leaves us alone, and we make sure when we find something that is a human remain or parts of them, they get to the right place.

It's a matter of live, and let live

Sorry, but I honestly don't see what is 'reasonable' about skipping around the old battlefields with a metal-detector. The underground is a complex archive, and I suggest it should be left to proffessional- or dedicated and experienced amateur-archaeologist, working under license of the VIOE. If you do not hold a license, and your activities are not supervised or approved by a recognised goverment body, than I think it is very reasonable to say that you have to keep off the fields with your metal-detector. I can only hope that the police do their job, and that illegal metal detectorists are caught and fined. And as far as I am concerned, their equipment should be taken from them as well.

What exactly is it you are looking for in the fields? I find it very hard to believe it is just the odd bullet or shrapnell fragment. If you dig up f.i. a cap-badge and you do not record where you found it and hand it over to the VIOE, you might as well just throw it away as trash. It has become completely useless, as the link with its context, that gave the object its archaeological meaning, has been lost forever. if the reason for your activities are a passion for the study of WW1, than I think you should realise that you do not contribute to this, but merely do it a great deal of harm.

Respect the law. Keep of the fields with your metal detector.

Bert.

[Max Poilu]

As for french politicians they are no different from ours, except most speak better English

Hmmmmm....this is possibly one of the most ridiculous statements made on this forum to date.

[Guest]

Giles comments :

The whole area is a real grey one - you probably know that Belgian guy who sells in the UK - especially at War and Peace and Military Odyssey - he brings some 400+ shells into the UK - last year he had complete boxes of Great War German Eggs and even a complete box of VB's! He's not the only one, some of the other big Euro dealers had stands looking like a scene from a WWII arms dump...can certainly be backed up as attached is a photo I took at the War and Peace show at the Hop Farm in Kent last July

They would have no hope in Australia where the laws governing such things are very tough

Peter

And who exactly certified that lot free from explosive?

I mean a professional, not some amateur who thinks they know what they are doing.

[Guest jumberly]

It was meant to be mildly humourous. But I must say politicians do seem to have certain commonalities regardless of nationality. Or is that just me?

[Max Poilu]

And who exactly certified that lot free from explosive?

I mean a professional, not some amateur who thinks they know what they are doing.

Angie, a good point. I know from bitter experience that you cannot always be sure of the outcome of a de-activation process. There are a lot of dealers in Holland, Belgium and F&F and some are more thorough than others. I have posted many times on this subject and commented on the various bits missing from certain dealers - fingers, hands, arms etc.

Some dealers obtain their goods through official channels (battlefield clearance/de-activation) others are very much DIY. A grenade can be made perfectly safe and inert but labaratory procedures may well find a chemical trace of explosive but to all intents and purposes the grenade is inert and totally safe. There are certain pieces of ordanance that due to their construction are extremely difficult to completely clean out others are much simpler.

It's not rocket science but as many have found to their cost you need to know what you are doing.

[Guest jumberly]

Giles.

Must just be me then.

I was just wondering how many posts I need to make before I can ignore the forum’s rules and insult members over their opinions?

[Paul Reed]

With respect you freely came to this site and made a number of bold statements and in your first post a clear allegation about a location on the battlefields. Myself, and others chose to disagree with you. Perhaps you are not used to people disagreeing with you? A forum, by its nature, is a place of debate. Mostly here it is friendly, but within a couple of posts you chose to state

I am always amazed at the breadth, variety and depth of knowledge on ‘The Great War Forum’, but as you can imagine as you step away from the specifics of WW1, the knowledge deteriorates.

Doesn't that insult members over their opinions?

[Max Poilu]

It was meant to be mildly humourous. But I must say politicians do seem to have certain commonalities regardless of nationality. Or is that just me?

How should we know it was humourous? A 'smiley' would have helped indicate this.

I was just wondering how many posts I need to make before I can ignore the forum’s rules and insult members over their opinions?

Like any forum or club members come and go - some are opiniated other less so. I did not mean to offend you and I do not believe I have 'insulted' you but your statement regarding politicians was frankly nonsense! You have made a number of sweeping generalisations and I felt I had to comment on that one. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it.