Metal Detectors in France

[Michelle Young]

Hi I'm thinking of taking my son to the somme to walk various battlefieds he's seven do you think he'll enjoy it? Has anybody taken their son's if so where did you go and whichwalks did you do?? Thanks Tommy Man.

Tommy

My 2 lads now 14 and nearly 11 have been visiting battlefields since they were babies, and still enjoy going over. The walks have been many and varied, and always long!

Cheers, Michelle

[dycer]

Tommy,

I don't feel in the least offended about your inadvertent remark.I appreciate the Great War seems so long ago and it may come to a surprise to the current generation that there are people alive who served in the War or as in my case have immediate relatives who lost their lives.

As I wrote earlier I don't know if your Son has been to France before but from experience a seven year old has a limited attention span.I trust you are going to intersperse the serious bits with the fun bits e.g.swings,ducks and the ever open door called food!

George

[Tommy Man]

Tommy,

I don't feel in the least offended about your inadvertent remark.I appreciate the Great War seems so long ago and it may come to a surprise to the current generation that there are people alive who served in the War or as in my case have immediate relatives who lost their lives.

As I wrote earlier I don't know if your Son has been to France before but from experience a seven year old has a limited attention span.I trust you are going to intersperse the serious bits with the fun bits e.g.swings,ducks and the ever open door called food!

George

Hi george my son seems to talk about the great war all the time he draws pictures looks at my relics and smle (deac) on the wall and asks me questions,I just hope the trip will inspire him more. Tommy Man

[Paul Reed]

Thanks to Paul REED ..(.he does maybe remember me ) yes in France you need an authorisation signed by Mr Le Préfet to use a metal detector..yes Gendarmes are sometimes doing their job..yes you can be arrested..yes the laws & rules are not very well known by pilgrims..

Bonjour Yves - ca va?

I thought the law in France had changed so that, technically, even with the permission of the owner, metal detectors cannot be used. I believe this is certainly the case at Verdun?

[Paul Reed]

my son seems to talk about the great war all the time he draws pictures looks at my relics and smle (deac) on the wall and asks me questions,I just hope the trip will inspire him more. Tommy Man

Thanks for your kind comments - hope you have a great trip. Do come back and tell us how you got on, won't you?

[healdav]

Paul

As I said last year the law in France is quite clear and quite unequivocable:

Collecting anythiong from a battlefield is illegal and the penalties are enormous.

Maximum fine is 10,000 euros and a year's jail.

This is handed down at least 3 times per year at Verdun alone.

I know that some years ago Christina and children were stopped by the Gendarmerie when walking around a battlefield in the pouring rain. It was assumed that they were collectors taking advantage of the bad weather when the Gendarmerie would be sheltering.

Just having a metal detector in your car will be proof of guilt.

I spend an awful lot of time exploring trenches, etc, but I always make sure that I have a file of some sort with maps or photos (I have one for just about every village in the St. Mihiel area) and a camera etc. That way when I am stopped I can show quite clearly that I have interests other than collecting. It also shows that if I clear soil to get a better phot I am doing just that and not starting excavating.

Once they know that you are just exploring they leave you alone.

[Christina Holstein]

INdeed we were stopped. It was in February, the weather was vile and we were soaked. The police stopped at first because they wanted to know whether we had seen a white car in the area - middle of the Argonne forest, so not likely- and then became intrigued by people actually out in such appalling weather. They had a quick look at our soggy picnic and wet clothes in the car and drove away again. We had no artefacts with us but the question asked was "Are you collectors?"

Christina

[KIRKY]

Hi

re the actions of the police i.e. arresting 3 people a year, is this confined to Verdun or has anyone ever been arrested in The Somme area? Either for collecting or detecting? I have never detected but collected.

Tommy man, I took my 12 year old to The Somme 2 years ago after he had pestered me about taking him. I thought it would get it out of his system but no he is as obessed as I am, which as far as I am concerned is great news as we have something else in common which we can discuss etc. We are returning in March and he is planning the trip.

He also wrote a short story for my Xmas present all based around Mametz Wood and it was pretty good!

His interest in WW1 has led him to being top dog in his History class and they started on WW1 this week and the teacher excused him from homework "as he knows it all"!

Tony

[healdav]

I didn't say that 3 people per year are arrested, but that 3 people per year get the maximum penalty. I don't know how many are arrested or warned or anything else.

[Tommy Man]

Hi

re the actions of the police i.e. arresting 3 people a year, is this confined to Verdun or has anyone ever been arrested in The Somme area? Either for collecting or detecting? I have never detected but collected.

Tommy man, I took my 12 year old to The Somme 2 years ago after he had pestered me about taking him. I thought it would get it out of his system but no he is as obessed as I am, which as far as I am concerned is great news as we have something else in common which we can discuss etc. We are returning in March and he is planning the trip.

He also wrote a short story for my Xmas present all based around Mametz Wood and it was pretty good!

His interest in WW1 has led him to being top dog in his History class and they started on WW1 this week and the teacher excused him from homework "as he knows it all"!

Tony

Hi Kirky It's nice to know that's it's not only my son that is fasinated by ww1,I was getting a bit worried!

[museum1418]

Hello Forum,

We have been coming to the Verdun area for almost thirty years. The use of metal-detector has been forbidden for approx. 20 years, the possession of a metal-detector in your car will be enough for the French police to write you a heavy fine and confiscate the detector.

The last couple of years the French law has changed so that every forest in the area is considered state property, thus making it clear that everything found in the forest is state property and removing the item is considered steeling from the state. In this way the police can act accordingly. be warned. Personally we do not have any bad experience with the French police or forest workers for that matter, but the negative stories we keep hearing these last few years confirm that the local police is definately on the look out for law breakers. Mind you, the increase of visitors the last 10 years or so combined with the number of people who think that ammo is harmless after being in the ground for so many years would make you jump even thinking about it. Every year people are killed handling so-called harmless looking ammunition, but this information is apparently not preventing people to collect the explosive hardware, taking it home and trying to disarm it in the hope to sell it for big bucks. Take a picture and stay away from dangerous explosives. Even the experts (Explosive Ordnance Disposal) are not thinking about dismantling this type of ammo (might verywell contain poison gas).

The above is probably the main reason why the local police is so jumpy and act the way they do.

Cheers,

Jan

http://www.westernfront.nl

[dycer]

Jan,

If people are stupid enough to search for and pick up live ammunition I am thick skinned enough to say they can suffer the consquences.I accept though that it is the Civil Authority's responsibility to ensure people do not innocently or otherwise cause danger to their own or other people's health.

My own concern is that I may have a relative who after 3 and half years of service in France could still be lying unburied in a field.It would really "cheese" me off if I knew someone had picked over his remains to retrieve buttons,badges for their own personal pleasure or profit.I have no problems if his remains have been scattered by a plough or some other farming/industrial implement.

George

[Guest private, 2nd worch. btn.]

May I just add to the above that this behaviour happened more than once starting from the seventies on:

I admit I have a metaldetector, and I do dig on ww1 sites. My big plan is to make some 'museum' of my own, to show people the equipment really used almost 100 years ago. So I do find a lot of things, and find some odd things.

During my 12 years of digging now, I came across 5 soldiers, of which 2 british and 3 germans (of which the latter where twisted together, we only found out that there were 3 of them, because of the skulls). We were proud that we were able to hand them over to the authorities, and were happy that we gave these men a proper burial site, and a gravestone. Pity on this is, that none could be identified .

I try to look out for signs that show traces of an eventual burial place for an MIA soldier. I know there are 'groups of legal men' who dig for the governmen, but they can't possible find all of these men. They have one site to explore, and the more men they find, the more I start to respect them (however I know how strange some of them are). And I try to help finding them, and hopefully, they will all be found one day (I know it's not possible, but why not?)

But there are other diggers as well, and I know some of 'em. One of these men is proud of all his stories about digging up relics and selling them for scrap. Everyone is familiar with the big Golf course near Hollebeke, not very far from Croonaert wood. Underneath that golf course are resting A LOT of soldiers of both sides. But none of them will be ever identified, or if they do it will be by their boots) because this one men cleared the whole place of ammunitions and other war debris before the thing openend for the wealthy public. He is proud to tell that he found soldiers, robbed all the buttons, badges, ammo, ... from them, and close the hole and look for more to fill his own pockets.

But what can we do about this behaviour? He is about 70 years old, and only knows this way of acting with war relics. His dad teached him how to dig, and how to deal with 'unpleasant' find s.

I find it an honour to find someone and give him a proper grave, near his comrades on a war cemetary.

But I do have to dig to find them, and if NO human remains are found around the artifacts, may it be a rifle, revolver, bayonet, equipment, badge or whatever, I do take the freedom to pick up this artifact.

I clean it and preserve it the best way as possible, and make it possible for other people to see and sometimes feel how an 100year old rifle or whatever feels like.

And most of the British people who come to my house, stay here and see my collection, know how respectfull I deal with these things. And most of 'em have received artifacts from me, FREE!!! Not making money out of it.

Everyone is free to come with me on a day on the fields, or to come and have a look at my collection. I will be happy to show it all, and give info on where every piece is found.

[paul guthrie]

Well there will be those who express strong disapproval of the activities described in the last post. There are lots of these guys operating now in Slovenia on the old Isonzo front and they have amassed an amazing amount of material.

[Paul Reed]

During my 12 years of digging now, I came across 5 soldiers, of which 2 british and 3 germans (of which the latter where twisted together, we only found out that there were 3 of them, because of the skulls).

Out of interest, how did you get permission to dig and use a metal detector on Belgian sites? I thought this was outlawed?

I applaud the fact that you have helped discover several missing soldiers, and handed them over to the authorities, but I must say I have mixed feelings about this - and I know others on this site feel even more passionately about it, as Paul Guthrie has hinted at above.

[bcerha]

At the risk of being in danger of stating the glaringly obvious, the most serious consequences from any activity of this kind is that presented by unexploded ordnance.

In my opinion humble albeit professional opinion there can be absolutely no excuse whatsoever for touching, disturbing or moving these deadly items. They are lethal and the risks you run by having anything to do with them cannot be underestimated.

THEY WERE DESIGNED TO KILL AND MAIM AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO LONG AFTER ALL OF US ARE DEAD AND GONE.

By way of a tragic example I attach the following link :

www.philipjohnston.com/news/milnews/te251097.htm

This should act as a salutaory reminder to one and all. Dr John Pimlott was an inspiring, gifted man and a truly great military historian. I had had the privilege of having him as my tutor at Sandhurst and heard him lecture on many occaisions. His death was all the more tragic because it was so easily avoidable.

I have also had the misfortune to witness first hand the effects of unexploded ordnance on the human body. We have all heard apochraphal and apparently amusing stories about stupid people blowing themselves to bits. Believe me the reality is far from amusing. Do not be a potential victim no matter how clever or skilled you think you are - it is just not worth it.

David

[healdav]

Appalling though you may find it, the French had to put glass into the windows at the Verdun Ossuary to prevent people stealing remains.

One true story about UXB is that a few years ago two German wives reported to the police that their husbands had gone on a weekend trip to Verdun and had not come back.

The French police were glad to have the news as they had found a large hole in the ground with some metal scattered around that looked as though it had come from a car. That is all that has ever been found of the men or their car.

It would appear that they picked up a large UXB, put it in the car, drove off and hit a bump!

You have been warned.

[Guest private, 2nd worch. btn.]

Paul,

the time I found these men is a long time ago. When nobody heard of laws against metal detecting, or needing a liscense to operate one.

Now we have to be at least amateur-archeologists to be allowed to operate one.... says the law. In Belgium, the police is not the most strict police of Europe. We are allowed a lot of things. I know people are being harrassed by the police, but we are way better of than the French.

Whenever policemen overhere see someone digging with a metaldetector, they pretend they haven't seen him, and proceed on their way. So we can get away with it easy.

I am not saying everybody should get a metaldetector, jump on a ferry and come overhere and dig all the fields upside down... Then they would make a problem out of it (and the farmers also I have the idea).

They allow a small amount of people on the fields, when nobody is overacting, and digging enourmous holes without filling them in again.

It is just: reasonable people do reasonable actions, and when there is no profit, overacting or theft from found soldiers, the police leaves us alone, and we make sure when we find something that is a human remain or parts of them, they get to the right place.

It's a matter of live, and let live

[Simon R]

Live and let live until you hit the unstable 4.5" fuze of course.

This is all very well if it is a) legal, actually connected to some form of historical or archaeological enquiry and c) not terribly dangerous. I'm not convinced that it is any of these, although I am of course willing to listen to reasoned argument.

Do people record and publish their finds? What are they saying, from a historical point of view, that further broadens our understanding of WWI from the collections they make? Are people mapping artifact scatters? Can this, in fact, be done? What strategies do people employ when using their metal detectors to sample the historic landscape? Where do all the finds go?

What, in short, is it all for? Do we pick at the Western Front or sample and survey it?

(don't know where that smilie came from but I can't get rid of him)

[Guest jumberly]

I regularly walk the Somme Battlefields and if I'm honest, I often stray of the beaten track and 'pop into' the odd private wood. This is the limit of my own 'dodgy' activities. How sad then, when visiting the cafe/visitors centre at Deville Wood in Nov 2004, the bloke behind the counter was selling 'artifacts'. He had a large hessian sack filled with shrapnel balls under the counter from which he filled up a small basket on the counter from which to sell them. Cap badges, shoulder flashes etc. were also on offer. I chatted to him and he openly admitted using a metal detector to locate his finds and was quite proud that "you need to know the good places to go to."

Of all bloody places to do this. What does the CWGC or the South African Govt think about it?

Who are these people who express respect for the fallen and then loot what they can for profit.

If you visit Vimy or Beaumont Hamel and then visit Sheffield Park, one may be forgiven for thinking that the Canadians have done more to honour and remember their loss in WW1 than we have. Isn't time that we stopped complaining about what is happening and actually do something?

I am presently talking to two MEPs (re - EU grants) and an Australian Organisation to form a charity to raise the funds to buy these hallowed acres (or is that hectares now?) and protected them for future generations and that generation that has already bought them with their blood.

I realise that this is a huge undertaking and that the Thiepval Project has gone some way towards this, but is it enough? My vision does not include large visitor centres with cafes and interactive educational resources. Just the Battlefields themselves, without factories or waste tips. What will happen the next time Paris needs another airport?

Your comments would be help.

[dycer]

jumberly,

I do sympathise with your pont of view,especially, as I have said before because I may have an Uncle lying unburied in the Somme area.

I know we have debated in the past pros and cons of leaving the Battlefields untouched.I suppose the starting point must be that ,immediately after the War, there was no drive by the combatants to leave them undisturbed and that they should be returned to peace-time use.I appreciate at the time the decision makers had no idea of the interest the Battlefields would bring to a minority of future generations and the technology(e.g.metal detectors,which are after all were developed as a result of War) which would be used to satisfy the future generations interest.

"The Bloke behind the counter" you describe was only satisfying his customers needs or possibly obtaining the artefacts to generate trade.Either way it is the greed of the current generation that fuels the trade.If people did not want these articles there would be no reason for anyone to prospect.

I am not sure I would want to see the remaining Battlefields preserved.I accept that any men still lying out there would not be disturbed but equally if the the Balttlefields were examined on a true archeological basis any men found would receive a dignified burial.

I have no problem with the Battlefields being disturbed as long as it is not done for profit

As regards the CWGC and South African Government.They are guests in France and presumably look to the French Government to safeguard the rights of any formally unburied casualty.

I wish you well in your campaign.

George

[Paul Reed]

How sad then, when visiting the cafe/visitors centre at Deville Wood in Nov 2004, the bloke behind the counter was selling 'artifacts'. He had a large hessian sack filled with shrapnel balls under the counter from which he filled up a small basket on the counter from which to sell them. Cap badges, shoulder flashes etc. were also on offer. I chatted to him and he openly admitted using a metal detector to locate his finds and was quite proud that "you need to know the good places to go to."

Are you sure this was Delville Wood? The shop is run by Janet Fairgrieve, a Scottish lady whose husband is curator of the museum. Normally the only "bloke" who works there is me, on a voluntary basis, and I wasn't there in November.

There is a bowl of shrapnel balls; they are there to satisfy the demand of school kids, whose teachers want them to have a 'safe souvenir'. In reality, they usually end up being given away to people. When I work there I also take in a few bits and pieces farmers have given me, which I pass on for free to people who are genuinely interested; last summer it was several youngsters who were obviosuly passionate about WW1. I see nothing wrong in that.

All the other artifacts for sale come from selected and trusted local collectors, and are sold on their behalf.

The SA government own and run this site, not the CWGC - although they do the maintenance. The shop and museum are run in agreement with the SA Embassy. There has to be an element of profit to keep the shop (which also has toilets and picnic facilities for all to use freely) open; remember, unlike all other museums on the Somme battlefields, Delville Wood is free.

[Paul Reed]

I am presently talking to two MEPs (re - EU grants) and an Australian Organisation to form a charity to raise the funds to buy these hallowed acres (or is that hectares now?) and protected them for future generations and that generation that has already bought them with their blood.

What the whole Western Front?

[Paul Reed]

I realise that this is a huge undertaking and that the Thiepval Project has gone some way towards this, but is it enough?

Do remember that the Thiepval Visitors centre is also a commercial venture. It is free to view the exhibition, but like Delville Wood is does have a shop.

[Guest jumberly]

One step at a time. But you tell me....why not?

Farming is in depression, land prices have never been lower. Zone Rouge could be a european park. Mad yes.

But why not.

It just takes the will and the organisation to force the issue.

For now the aim is on 5 specific sites.