Metal Detectors in France

[ianw]

Problem is that generally it is not grave robbing but can turn into this quite easily. Stripping any items from their context when they could have been used to positively I.D a casualty is really "identity robbery" and absolutely outrageous in my opinion. However, if detecting results in the finding of remains and they are then treated properly then it's a different matter. A thorny problem.

[Max]

Problem is that generally it is not grave robbing but can turn into this quite easily. Stripping any items from their context when they could have been used to positively I.D a casualty is really "identity robbery" and absolutely outrageous in my opinion. However, if detecting results in the finding of remains and  they are then treated properly then it's a different matter. A thorny problem.

Exactly what I meant to say but I had a bug up my butt at the time so was not as eloquent

[paul guthrie]

Your making an assumption aren't you? Some of us are particular about who represents us. Rather a French rural brief than a Louisville sharp.

You cur! I am a Lexington shyster!

[paul guthrie]

I personally feel the laws protecting the artifacts of the Great War should be relaxed to allow people to relic hunt freely.

I strongly disagree. I find the whole thing very distasteful, its tantamount to grave robbing.

Andy

Agreed! If it's on the surface & harmless & small so you wil not be arrested but digging? With a detector? No.

[Simon R]

A metal detector is a geophysical tool, if we are all serious about looking after battlefields (however that manifests itself) then we really ought to be using such tools to find out as much information as we possibly can about those landscapes. I am not sure of the metal detectors particular use in this regard, I foresee many methodological problems, but do not discount it.

[Mark A]

I don't think there's any doubt that metal detectors when used by archaeologists in the context of a proper archaeological investigation are useful- they allow a lot of ground to be covered in a short time and can pick up very small things that might otherwise be missed.

But there is an obvious difference between that and souvenir hunting- digging out and ripping out finds out of context for private collections.

I used to field walk on the Somme and find quite a lot of relics and kept a few as well. But I don't do that any more. As I learnt on this forum, field finds have their uses archaelogically and the best thing to do is photograph them if you want a momento.

Mark

[Simon R]

Granted, but what kind of questions do we think we ought to be asking of battlefields through archaeological techniques? How do we factor metal detectors into it? Artifact scatters revealed through metal detector surveys might not really be of any use in a field utterly full of shrapnel; won't we just prove that the field was shelled and is full of shrapnel?

I play devil's advocate here and I am sure there are particular strategies for excavations.

re: souvenir hunting - 10 cap badges of the DWR in a surface scatter derived from a trench area perhaps now ploughed out and previously thought not to have been occupied by the DWR in any way shape or form is important information - ploughsoil is still a context.

[Somme1916]

As I've posted in earlier threads about relic hunting & battlefield archeology, I know some of the members of this forum do not agree with my view on this subject and I do not wish to change their opinions, I only want to state mine.

It's my opinion that the Great War is sufficiently well documented in written text, pictures, period video taping and sound recordings that the artifacts (i.e. archeological record) have no new information to offer us historically. On the individual soldier lever I have a different opinion.

We all know there are still large numbers of soldiers who are MIA and that there are also artifacts that can help identify these people. Anything with or near human remains needs to be turned over to the authorities to assist with the possible identification of the body. Taking anything from such a site is grave robbing, which I deplore.

On the other hand the immense majority of the artifacts that litter the ground (either under or on top of) have no bearing on these lost individuals nor can they tell us anything significant enough to alter our view of the Great War or life during the war. Therefore the antiquity protection laws should not apply and relic hunting for WW1 & WW2 artifacts. One could even say the modern relic hunter is just continuing the battlefield clearance effort.

To each his/her own,

Jon

[Mark A]

Jon-

Agree in some ways, I can't really get worked up about people pocketing shrapnel balls and bullets. But it's a fine line I think. I've only ever taken surface finds found while I've been following the movements of a unit or suchlike and I am very strongly anti-metal detectors. But what about cap badges and shoudler titles? I'm looking at my framed RFA, Duke of Wellingtons, East Surrey badges that I found... I can't help thinking I wonder if there was a body just below the surface that I inadvertently condemned to non-identification. I remember being related stories about various finds coming to the surface on the same spot, season after season that gradually revealed a body (it was a German sniper- first his rifle, then some buttons, then the bones).

Anyway, as you say, to each his own. I don't want to get hysterical about it.

Best,

Mark

[Somme1916]

Mark,

I often think about who might be just inches below my feet every time I cross any battlefield, especially when it’s a Great War battlefield. The only thing's I've ever found on a Great War site that might have been related to a near by MIA was a Tommies boot and a UK general service button. When I found each of these items I took a very close look around to see if anything there might suggest some lost fellow was resting near by but no one was there. I even scrapped away some dirt in the area as kind of a shallow test pit but no sign of bones was discovered.

As a Great War militaria collector I also visit fairs/shows in search of items. So far I haven’t seen anything there that makes me think any of the dealers I’ve seen were grave robbing, though I know it happens (Ghouls, yek!). It does make me wonder though; by buying Great War militaria and artifacts are we the consumers/collectors fueling grave robbing in some remote way? The same could be said for those of us who collect de-milled shells and grenades. Aren’t we in some ways to blame for placing the people who go out after these dangerous munitions at risk?

I had never thought about that facet of it until I was in the Balkans and we were told not to by any Trench Art or de-milled munitions from the locals because they hired kids to go collect the stuff and many were getting killed or maimed. Very sad, very sad thing when kids are involved.

Jon

[Mark A]

Hi there Jon,

It sounds like you're being careful (I don't mean that to sound patronising) and it looks like your tomatoes are benefiting from at least one of your finds!

I suppose we agree that the relics of the great war are interesting and evocative but as for me, a photograph of relics is all I'm interested in now.

Best,

Mark

[frans]

I am maybe a bit late, but this could be usefull for next year.

For the lovers who collect unexploded and highly unstable rusty amuntion, there is no need to take a metel detector to Belgium. When the plouwing season starts here around april, the farmers at great risk to themselves stack the new yearly harvest at the roadside for collection by the bomb disposal squad.

There is absolutely nobody who will stop you to pick them up. If they did find out that they are in the boot of your car, i doubt they would come within a mile of you.

Just hope when you cross the channel the war relics don't sink the boat.

frans

[healdav]

Many farmers now don't put these things by the road, they collect them until they have a decent pile and then get the disposal people over.

They know that if they leave them beside the road they will disappear overnight;taken by collectors.

One can only hope that if a gas shell explodes on a ferry or in Britain, some idiot doesn't conclude that the people concerned were sucide bombers from Al Qaeda.

The suicide bit would be correct, however.

[Tommy Man]

Hi can anybody tell me if there is any battlefield walks where I'm likely to find small relics buckles etc, I'm off to the somme in feb and staying in martinpuich.Thanks Tommy Man

[dycer]

Tommy,

As one who has an Uncle who may still be lying unburied in the Somme area I would rather you left things well alone regardless how small they are!

George

[Max]

As one who has an Uncle who may still be lying unburied in the Somme area I would rather you left things well alone regardless how small they are!

Ditto

[Tommy Man]

Hi I'm thinking of taking my son to the somme to walk various battlefieds he's seven do you think he'll enjoy it? Has anybody taken their son's if so where did you go and whichwalks did you do?? Thanks Tommy Man.

[dycer]

Tommy,

It might be a little from your area and I have to confess I've not visited but Newfoundland Park may be worth visiting.There is also a Museum in Albert underneath the Church which my 14 year old found interesting.Whilst I do not condone it for the reason I explained earlier when we visited the Museum some years ago it did have some Battlefield relics for sale e.g. rusty steel helmets.My Son enjoyed sitting on the 25 pounder Gun on display outside the Museum.He also "enjoyed" visiting Vimy Ridge and being in the "Front Line Trenches".

Don't know if you have any relatives buried out there but a visit to a Cemetery to see your name(as happened to my Son) on a Gravestone was very thought provoking.In my case it is the Arras Memorial hence my concern about you picking up artefacts from the ground.

If it's your Son's first visit to France teach him a few simple French Word e.g. Bonjour,Merci.The French people do love children and a few phrases even mispronounced makes their day.

Enjoy your visit.

George

[Paul Reed]

Some ideas on what to visit here:

http://battlefields1418.50megs.com/somme_1916.htm

I would be very careful, as people have mentioned, on what you pick up for all sorts of reasons: it really isn't a hobby for the curious when you consider all the dangers.

There are plenty of walks in and around Martinpuich where you are staying; local roads and tracks are all public access, but I wouldn't advise walking across fields. It may well upset the locals.

[bkristof]

Don't forget the guys who sell boxes full of relics on the war and peace show.

One even offered bones!!!

As long their is a market, their will be sellers and people who walk over dead bodies to gain some money

[Tommy Man]

Tommy,

It might be a little from your area and I have to confess I've not visited but Newfoundland Park may be worth visiting.There is also a Museum in Albert underneath the Church which my 14 year old found interesting.Whilst I do not condone it for the reason I explained earlier when we visited the Museum some years ago it did have some Battlefield relics for sale e.g. rusty steel helmets.My Son enjoyed sitting on the 25 pounder Gun on display outside the Museum.He also "enjoyed" visiting Vimy Ridge and being in the "Front Line Trenches".

Don't know if you have any relatives buried out there but a visit to a Cemetery to see your name(as happened to my Son) on a Gravestone was very thought provoking.In my case it is the Arras Memorial hence my concern about you picking up artefacts from the ground.

If it's your Son's first visit to France teach him a few simple French Word e.g. Bonjour,Merci.The French people do love children and a few phrases even mispronounced makes their day.

Enjoy your visit.

George

Hi george thanks for the message,I've been to albert myself what a fantastic insight into the great war! I must admit I forgot about that place,I'm sure my son will enjoy it! I hope you didn't feel offended with my last message about finding relics,I'm sure that I have relatives that have fought and died.Thanks again Tommy Man.

[Tommy Man]

Some ideas on what to visit here:

http://battlefields1418.50megs.com/somme_1916.htm

I would be very careful, as people have mentioned, on what you pick up for all sorts of reasons: it really isn't a hobby for the curious when you consider all the dangers.

There are plenty of walks in and around Martinpuich where you are staying; local roads and tracks are all public access, but I wouldn't advise walking across fields. It may well upset the locals.

Hi paul thanks for the friendly advice are you "the paul reed" as in the walking the somme writer?? I must admit I admire your work and have seen you bbc series,what a credit you are!! Thanks again Tommy Man.

[Mat McLachlan]

Tommy Man,

I think you've got the wrong man. Paul Reed who writes those excellent books about the Somme is a learned and distinguished gentleman who would never hang around with a bunch of war nerds like us!

Enjoy your trip to the Somme - let us know how you get on.

Cheers,

Mat

[Max]

I think you've got the wrong man. Paul Reed who writes those excellent books about the Somme is a learned and distinguished gentleman who would never hang around with a bunch of war nerds like us!

Maybe, but he knows where Engels is

Andy

[Yves Le Cuziat, MBE]

G'day

As a professional battlefield guide & Historian ..as Iam nota collector....it is interesting for me to read all of your mails..I am not judging people..I am becoming a little bit fatalist and know that the Great War memorabilia market has great days in front..so I know that scavengers or "strange collectors" of all nationalities will keep going their dirty behaviour....making money from selling WWI items..many collectors are like children...in front of Santa Claus

Thanks to Paul REED ..(.he does maybe remember me ) yes in France you need an authorisation signed by Mr Le Préfet to use a metal detector..yes Gendarmes are sometimes doing their job..yes you can be arrested..yes the laws & rules are not very well known by pilgrims..

I just ask to myself 2 questions

How many bodies were found by metal detectors and never declared by their user?

what are the thinking of those who died on these battlefields ? Lest We Forget

Cheers

Yves