Denise Ford Posted 10 April , 2005 Share Posted 10 April , 2005 Amazing what one trip to Kew can uncover... I have so many questions to ask! I've found who I think is my g g uncle after hitting many brick walls but he doesn't appear on Roll of Honour or CWGC... and I can't work out why. These are his details: James Palmerer (I think this is a misnomer - family name is Palmer) Woodall born Walworth, Surrey Enlisted Stratford, Essex lived Borough, Surrey Died 21/10/1915 Died of wounds Served in France & Flanders. L/Sgt 8550 Royal Munster Fusiliers 2nd Battalian These details finally found on SDGW. So, my questions a) why is he not on any memorial? and b ) can he be remembered now on a memorial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 10 April , 2005 Share Posted 10 April , 2005 Name: WOODHALL Initials: J Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Lance Serjeant Regiment: Royal Munster Fusiliers Unit Text: 2nd Bn. Age: 26 Date of Death: 21/10/1915 Service No: 8550 Additional information: Son of Mrs. Woodhall, of 59, Wilford Rd., West Croydon. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: 3. 36. Cemetery: LES GONARDS CEMETERY, VERSAILLES He may be on Croydon as Woodhall. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 10 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2005 oh blooming heck... that's not him. At least... that's not his parents. Darn it and yet I was sure this was him, living in Borough and born Walworth, I was certain, it's exactly the right place. But his parents remained in Walworth all their lives... so can't be the Croydon ones. Where do I go now? If he isn't this one - and I checked the other three Woodall possibles and he wasn't them either... family rumour says he died in the Somme but we just have no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curranl Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Hi Denise, Your man is mentioned in a memorial; Ireland's Memorial Records! He is the same man as Malcolm has identified. There is only one James Palmerer Woodall in the Records: Woodall, James Palmerer. Reg. No. 8550. Rank, Lance-Sergeant, Royal Munster Fusiliers, 2nd Battalion. Died of Wounds, France, October 21st, 1915. Born Walworth, Surrey. Your man could not have been killed in the battle of the Somme as that began in July 1916. It is more likely that he died at the battle of Loos, or rather after the battle of Loos, as he died of wounds. If you want a copy of his entry in the Records, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send it on. Regards, Liam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 11 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Liam I just can't understand it. My James Woodall DEFINITELY died in the war. Where, I can't be sure. He DEFINITELY was born Walworth and would have lived thereby - Borough is close enough (ie walking distance). BUT - the parents listed on this from Croydon can't be his!! I know exactly where they lived all their lives and they never moved, not even temporarily. So that means either the memorial is wrong... or the person is wrong... or James isn't remembered anywhere at all.... I have a photo of him taken just before he left for war... he left telling his mother he wouldn't be back... and he gave his sister his penknife. Against usual custom, she didn't give him a silver coin in return for good luck - he died in the war and his sister (my g grandmother) blamed herself all her life for not giving him the coin and thereby jinxing him. He simply now seems to have vanished! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Hello Denise Can you tell us how you definately know that your great great grandmother didn't live in West Croydon in the early 20s? I ask because facts given as absolutely definate by living members of my family concerning deceased ancestors have turned out later to be less than definate or just plain incorrect. I have checked the 1901 census and cannot find one James Palmer Woodall who was born in Walworth, never mind two. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curranl Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Hi Denise, It has to be a case of an error in the CWGC records for next of kin. I suspect that, like all databases, there are a few errors! If you have a photo of your man in uniform, post it here. I don't know enough about uniforms to be able to tell if his is a Munster Fusiliers, but there are uniform gurus ( or whatever it is you call a uniform expert ) here who will be able to identify it. His name is so unusual that I find it hard to believe he can be anyone other than No. 8550. Regards, Liam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 11 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Andy: James's parents were Borough/Walworth born and bred, as were the rest of his family. His niece and nephew confirm that he was living with his partner (he never married her but had kids - their names long forgotten) in the Walworth area at the time that he went off to war. His parents were also born and bred Walworth and never moved from that area in their entire lives - again clarified by James' neice and nephew. His neice (my grandmother) was born 1917 and she is adamant her family were there prior to that... I'm pretty sure they told me the meeting with the penknife was in a local Walworth pub... I can't see the family travelling from Croydon, it was quite a trek back then.... It could be rumour corrupted over the years, but I'd be surprised, I have to say... James was virtually hero worshipped in our family - and constantly spoken about... his memory never forgotten. The photograph I have of him is in mint condition, you wouldn't believe how well it was cherished. I'll post it tonight when i've scanned it in - sadly it shows no regimental badges that I can see: I wondered if it was taken before he'd been assigned to a regiment? I can't find his birth certificate either so I can't prove Walworth or Croydon connections... he really has disappeared. I really want to believe this is our guy though, I just need to find the connection... my grandmother seems to remember the "truth" when I present facts in front of her and she says "oh yes...." whilst I'm tearing my hair out in dispair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 His name is so unusual that I find it hard to believe he can be anyone other than No. 8550. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree with you Liam, the name is so unusual that I am practically convinced. The chances of another James Palmer Woodall being born in Walworth must be quite remote. Denise I look forward to having a look at James when you post his picture. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Hello Denise Just to add this to the pot. I have just been on FreeBMD and found a birth reference to a James Parmorall Woodall March quarter 1888, District: St Olave Southwark (right next to Walworth/Borough) Vol: 1d Page 216 Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 More for the Pot There are 2 James Palmer Woodalls on the BMD on Ancestry. James Palmer Woodall, married June 1840, St Olave, Southwark James Palmer Woodall, married December 1890, St Olave, Southwark There is also a James Woodall at 273 Tabard Street, St Georges, Southwark, age 16 + family. I have this family: George Woodall born Borough, 34; Harriett Woodall, born Walworth, 34; no James in children, but Mary, Sarah, Thomas, Louise, John, Lena & Amelie. Last 3 with surname transcribed as "Woodell" due to them being on different page to others. At 4 Riddell Street, Camberwell. 122 people living in Walworth district in 1901, none even vaguely resembling Woodall or Palmer or Palmerer. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 11 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Blooming heck!! I have just called my great uncle... he said to try Southwark on the census because he'd have been born near Potier Street - which is Walworth but on the Southwark border (Walworth being part of Southwark)!! James sister was born in Tabard Street and grew up in Potier Street - Tabard Street runs into Potier Street - so I think that's the one!! Here is James: My great uncle says he thought James was part of a Scots regiment - but Muster is Irish - right? Would they have worn tartan? Palmer is a family name. Going right back... so it could be that cousins etc took that name - now the question is, is the RMF James the same James from Tabard Street??! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 I suppose you want family details now, eh, Denise? Back soon! Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 11 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Not half!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Hello Denise Great photo. I think that the James Palmerer Woodall 8550, Munster Fusiliers is the same chap as I highlighted above having been born in the March quarter 1888. The age is just about right and the name is correct , it would seem that it is James Par(l)merer or Parmorall (rather than Palmer) Woodall. Whether this means that he is your James I don't know. The James Woodall living at 273 Tabard St. was a fish curer, as were a number of his family, does this ring a bell. His age being 16 in 1901 would seem to disqualify him as being the James Woodhall as listed on CWGC. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Denise, 1901 Census John Woodall, 50, Head, Fish curer Mary Ann Woodall, 48, Wife, - George Woodall, 27, Fish curer William Woodall, 20, Clerk Charles Woodall, 18, Fish curer James Woodall, 16, Fish curer Mary Ann Woodall, 13, - All born Southwark. I suspect there was a fish market in the vicinty. All except William worked from home. Census image available, if required... Do you want me to dig back on this line? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Steve According to the CWGC record for James Woodhall (Munster Fusiliers) he was 26 years old when he died in 1915. The James Woodall you highlight above would have been 30/31. I don't think it is the same man. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Andy, It may be that the Southwark James is her ancestor and we need to follow that line, though. Denise needs to decide which White Rabbit to follow... Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 11 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Oh blimey that's definitely my family, Steve. Mary Ann Woodall Jnr is my great grandmother. And yes they were all fish curers, Billingsgate Fish Market is within easy distance of Tabard/Potier Streets. So now I have the right James... I'm back to square one with the CWGC/SDGW etc...? So where the heck is he? Great Uncle Billy (Mary Ann's son) just told me that Mary Ann used to tell him that James died as a gunner following the tanks: and that he thought tanks were only brought in after 1916... can anyone confirm this? Does this help me in any way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 I agree, but the problem is that there are more than 1 James Woodall born in Southwark and the one that you are trying to follow does not fit the profile of the chap on CWGC. If we accept that the James Woodall aged 16 in 1901 is Denises ancestor then in my view we have to discount the 8550 James Palmerer Woodall, Munster Fusiliers, born Walworth (details as supplied by Liam and CWGC) and look for someone else who fits the bill. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 sorry, Denise posted just before I did. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Denise, Tanks first saw action at High Wood on the Somme on 15th September 1916. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 11 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Jeepers... as said in one of my earlier posts... my family have always insisted that James died in the Somme! Now what?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 Denise There are only 13 CWGC records for a J. Woodall/Woodhall being killed in the Great War, many of which you can easily discount. There is a Sherwood Forester with the initials J.P. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 11 April , 2005 Share Posted 11 April , 2005 1891 Census John Woodall, 42, Fish curer Marian Woodall, 39 (variant on the name...) George, 18 Sarah, 14, Presumed married by 1901. William, 12 Charles, 8 James, 6 Marian, 3 (variant again, perhaps the Census taker was a little hard of hearing) Albert, 1 (did he die young?) Martha Scroggins, 13, niece (Mary Ann/Marian's maiden name?) It does look like we have to "discard" the Royal Munster Fusilier, though. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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