Max Posted 12 April , 2005 Share Posted 12 April , 2005 I am not too concerned about the fact that "Mrs Woodall" is shown as residing in West Croydon at the time of the sending of the final verification form as this may well have been of a temporary nature. It may well be that she was visiting relatives as a quick check of CWGC shows that there are at least 3 Woodalls from West Croydon (Charles, George, W.J.) who were killed during the Great War. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 12 April , 2005 Share Posted 12 April , 2005 ...at least 3 Woodalls from West Croydon (Charles, George, W.J.) who were killed during the Great War. Andy <{POST_SNAPBACK}> which could well be James' older brothers!! Let's not go there... Please. EDIT: Charles & George aren't James' brothers but are brothers to each other. If that makes sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 12 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2005 we only lost James in the war, Steve, don't panic... I'm afraid we have no idea at all of the partners name: all I know is he lived with her (pigot's directory??) and they had at least 2 children. It is known they weren't married... but that's all we know. To be honest, this is the part of the story I don't really understand... James was obsessively honoured in our family.. yet the partner and kids forgotten... don't make sense to me... I personally don't hold much credence to it but Nan is insistent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 12 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2005 OK guys... have now confirmed that we have no knowledge of a death plaque...doesn't of course mean one didn't arrive, but one isn't held in our family. Now Uncle Billy threw in one suggestion I hadn't come thought of at all: Was this entire story told to him and his family completely untrue...? Was James actually a shot as a deserter and his family covered his tracks with a nice heroic tale? It hadn't even crossed my mind to explore this route... but could it be a possibility? Would this explain the lack of a memorial or are we now clutching at straws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 12 April , 2005 Share Posted 12 April , 2005 Hello Denise Even if James was shot for desertion he would still be recognised by CWGC and have a gravestone/memorial just like everyone else who was killed during the war. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 12 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2005 Oh piffle... that stuffs that theory then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 12 April , 2005 Share Posted 12 April , 2005 Can't see him on the deserters list, either jailed or shot Also, looking back at the records, how confident are you that they are as accurate as they could be? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 12 April , 2005 Share Posted 12 April , 2005 Even if James was shot for desertion he would still be recognised by CWGC and have a gravestone/memorial just like everyone else who was killed during the war. Andy unless the grave was lost in subsequent battles, as some were Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 12 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2005 The census details are 100% correct (ie James, age 16 in 1901, born Southwark). Family story: 99% sure. Perfectly willing to discuss alternatives however, in the light of nothing else coming to light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 12 April , 2005 Share Posted 12 April , 2005 Even if James was shot for desertion he would still be recognised by CWGC and have a gravestone/memorial just like everyone else who was killed during the war. Andy unless the grave was lost in subsequent battles, as some were <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hello John Thats why I stated gravestone/memorial rather than just gravestone. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 12 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2005 except I've just found on freebmd... James Woodall born Jun qtr 1891 St Saviour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 12 April , 2005 Share Posted 12 April , 2005 Denise My advice would be to obtain the birth certificate of James Parmorall Woodall March quarter 1888, District: St Olave Southwark Vol: 1d Page 216. At best this could confirm that he is the man shown in the 1901 census as being 16 years old and at worst we could dismiss completely the Munster Fusilier as your James. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 12 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 12 April , 2005 Andy Agreed: have applied for certificate and asked for details to be checked against parents details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 12 April , 2005 Share Posted 12 April , 2005 Denise Let us know when it arrives. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 12 April , 2005 Share Posted 12 April , 2005 Good plan, Andy and Denise. Talking of plans. Slight change in mine. Just noticed the PRO is closed for the Bank Holiday on Saturday 30th. Looks like the attack might be moved up. Possibly Thursday if I can get (very) short notice of leave (or I may have to go AWOL ) Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 13 April , 2005 Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Denise If you look at the following site you will find three Woodalls listed on the Croydon WW1 Roll of Honour. This may indicate that James's mother moved to the Croydon area following the war to be nearer family especially if her husband had died. She wouldn't necessarily have stayed there. The train from London Bridge station would have provided easy links with Croydon. www.croydononline.org/history/ Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 13 April , 2005 Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Myrtles 3 Woodalls on Croydon are George and Charles that Andy (Max) found earlier and Frank Ernest who is also not related. Which begs the question that if "Mrs Woodhall" was in West Croydon then the Royal Munster Fusilier would maybe have been on the Croydon Memorial. Not necessarily, of course but likely. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 13 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Great idea Myrtle.. but we don't and haven't ever had any family connection to Croydon... I've done both sides of James family and the most logical place for her to have travelled to where family were located was Bermondsey, Walworth or Worcester... not Croydon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 13 April , 2005 Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Myrtles 3 Woodalls on Croydon are George and Charles that Andy (Max) found earlier and Frank Ernest who is also not related. Which begs the question that if "Mrs Woodhall" was in West Croydon then the Royal Munster Fusilier would maybe have been on the Croydon Memorial. Not necessarily, of course but likely. Steve <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Steve It depends on when she moved there, when the roll of honour was compiled and how the names were collected. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 13 April , 2005 Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Great idea Myrtle.. but we don't and haven't ever had any family connection to Croydon... I've done both sides of James family and the most logical place for her to have travelled to where family were located was Bermondsey, Walworth or Worcester... not Croydon. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Denise In that case have you checked memorials in Bermondsey and Walworth ? Myrtle PS Did you contact the library in Borough High Street as I suggested offline ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 13 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Online and with the local council... nothing found. I'm not sure I have covered all the memorials but I don't really know where they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 13 April , 2005 Share Posted 13 April , 2005 Denise In that case have you checked memorials in Bermondsey and Walworth ? Myrtle PS Did you contact the library in Borough High Street as I suggested offline ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You will not find a WW1 memorial with names in St George the Martyr but you will find one inside the old Southwark Town Hall next to the library in Walworth Road which covers men from Bermondsey and Camberwell. There is another memorial for Bermondsey men, but best thing is phone the local studies library in Borough High Street, tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 13 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 13 April , 2005 St George the Martyr confirmed that James wasn't on their memorial and the Walworth Road one also didn't bring any joy. I hadn't heard of the other one in Bermondsey so thanks, I'll give the local studies library a call! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 13 April , 2005 Share Posted 13 April , 2005 St George the Martyr confirmed that James wasn't on their memorial and the Walworth Road one also didn't bring any joy. I hadn't heard of the other one in Bermondsey so thanks, I'll give the local studies library a call! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Denise Just wondering if St George the Martyr told you that they had a memorial with names ? As far as I know there is only a memorial window without names. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 13 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 13 April , 2005 One of them said they didn't have names at all... I don't remember now which one, I have to admit I thought it was the one not in the church but it was some time ago I called and as I found nothing I gave up on that angle and that was when I decided to try the official records.. which led me here. I still think its the birth certificate that will answer a lot of questions... fortunately it seems the PRO are now back to 5-7 day responses from their 3 week minimum that it has been of late so I hope to have more to go on by this time next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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