Stebie9173 Posted 14 April , 2005 Share Posted 14 April , 2005 Denise, Sorry. Couldn't find James's Service Records under either Woodall or Woodhall. Only one James Woodall, born Handsworth, Staffs. Either his records are gone, or they're under a name other than James. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 14 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 14 April , 2005 Oh blast. Is the polite version of what I want to say. Back to the waiting for the birth certificate... You know I'm still not convinced he didn't use another name... i still can't locate a birth either... I'll have to check but from memory i'm sure i found another name born at the right time, right place... if the birth cert that i've applied for doesn't throw any light on the matter, i think i'll apply for that one. Thanks for going to all that effort, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Denise Have you checked the following ? Samuel James Woodall London Regiment 21st (County of London Bn) (1st Surrey Rifles) Rifleman 651512 KiA 15th September 1916 En: Camberwell Res: Long Lane SE Commemorated: Thiepval Long Lane as the name indicates is a long road but the section in SE is near to Tabard Street. Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 15 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Blooming heck Myrtle... that's the exact name I found on the GRO register.... by jove I think we might have cracked it... anyone got any details on parents etc? What battle was commemorated at Theipval? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 15 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2005 A Samuel James Woodall was born Mar qtr 1885 St Saviour, ref 1d 32 - this is the one I was suspicious about !! Ooooh I'm getting really excited now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Hello Myrtle Did you get the info from SDGW? If so could you check place of birth please? Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Going back to the photo of the man, I`m wondering why someone would want to ink out the buttons! Somebody clearly wasn`t happy with what they indicated! And I don`t know what to make of the capbadge area! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 15 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2005 They're inked out??? I just assumed he didn't have a "proper" uniform yet.... Edited to say: god you're absolutely right!! Not one person in the family ever noticed this... what on earth would they do that for?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 what on earth would they do that for?? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Exactly!! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Denise I don't want to rain on your parade but even if you think that this Sam is in fact James (if you see what I mean) you are still going to have to prove out a link to his military service. In other words without a clue to regiment or regimental number then you are actually no closer to success than you were before. A quick perusal of FreeBMD shows that during the period 1880 to 1895 there were 3 Alberts, 2 Georges, 1 John, 2 James, 2 Thomas, 1 Louie, 1 William, 2 Charles and 1 Samuel registered in St Saviours any one of whom could , theoretically have served as James Woodall. It is quite likely that many of these men served with the armed forces during WW1 in some capacity or other. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 15 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2005 That's just plain wierd, Phil... if this is "Uncle Jim", then he seems to be in the most logical regiment for the area: James', cousin, joined the Scottish Rifles - yet we have no connection to Scotland at all, certainly not in the recent past of James' family: but we do have a story of this cousin being taunted on an omnibus in Southwark for wearing a Scots uniform and him being so incensed that he dragged the man taunting off the 'bus and beating him so severely that he died: so there must have been a real pride in that uniform - now that story never made any sense to me: but blacking out the name of a Surrey regiment... that's totally beyond me. Gonna call Uncle Billy to see if he can throw any light on it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 15 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2005 The Overseas death records show this: Samuel J Woodall died 1916, Rank: Rifleman No: 651512 Unit: Lond (Lend?? not sure) Does this help me? Will a WWI death certificate give me parental details which could prove it? I can also obviously apply for his birth certificate that will prove he's mine... Am i right in believing that Theipval commemorated the Battle of the Somme in 1916? Everything just seems right: we were told Uncle Jim died following the tanks as a gunner, going over the top at the Somme... this guy is a rifleman in the right place (I hope!) and the right time in the right battle (again, I hope!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 They're inked out??? I just assumed he didn't have a "proper" uniform yet.... Edited to say: god you're absolutely right!! Not one person in the family ever noticed this... what on earth would they do that for?? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Lets not go down the conspiracy theory route. In my opinion the "inking out" just appears to be the scribbling of a child rather than some adult attempt to disguise the regiment of the man in the uniform. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 What battle was commemorated at Theipval? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A little bash called the Somme. The memorial generally has the names of those whose bodies were never found. Did you say if James' body was returned to the family? As far as linking to service - we're back to service records again? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 15 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Steve Trying not to do a little jig of excitement here now you've confirmed The Somme. No, James' body was never returned to the family. Guess I'm going to Kew at the weekend again eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Lets not go down the conspiracy theory route. In my opinion the "inking out" just appears to be the scribbling of a child rather than some adult attempt to disguise the regiment of the man in the uniform. Andy <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Anything`s possible, Andy. But it`s not what I`d expect a scribbling child to choose to do. Bit too selective! Phil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 The Overseas death records show this: Samuel J Woodall died 1916, Rank: Rifleman No: 651512 Unit: Lond (Lend?? not sure) Does this help me? Will a WWI death certificate give me parental details which could prove it? I can also obviously apply for his birth certificate that will prove he's mine... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A death certificate will not have parental details. A birth certificate will only prove, one way or the other, that a Samuel James was born to the people in St Saviour who are your ancestors. It will not prove that this Samuel James is the James in the photo. Neither will it prove that the Samuel James registered in St Saviour is the Samuel James who was KiA in 1916 and listed on the Thiepval memorial. To prove out a link you will have to hope that Samuel James service record exists. Even if it does exist it will not prove that this Samuel is in fact the James in the photo, to be honest I can see no way in which you are going to be able to do that. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 If it was an adult, then they missed a button - right pocket. If it was an attempt to hide you'd do them all. IMHO, childs scribblings. The 15th September 1916 was the first day that the tanks were used at the Somme in the attack on High Wood. 1/21st London Rifles were in 47th (1/2nd London) Division. Haven't got my books available. Where were they on the day anyone? Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Oooh, I'm excited now! Check this page out Denise! http://www.answers.com/topic/high-wood Steve. Calm down boy! So excited I forgot to add the link! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Anything`s possible, Andy. But it`s not what I`d expect a scribbling child to choose to do. Bit too selective! Phil B <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hello Phil I have four small children and its precisely what a small child would do. Either buttons or a moustache. The colouring on the photo in no way looks like the work of an adult, its just too imprecise. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 15 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2005 But the death details will have a date of birth and place of birth - won't they? Or would that not be the case for a war certificate? Uncle Billy can't shed any light on the inking out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 The death certificate only shows the supposed date of death and age at death, no birth date. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denise Ford Posted 15 April , 2005 Author Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Thanks Andy: but there is only one Samuel James Woodall born that year... in that area: it isn't such a far fetched assumption to say that it HAS to be him, is it? Of course, I'm hoping Kew will answer a few questions, assuming his record survived but I can't rely on that by any means, I haven't found a single one for my family, as yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stebie9173 Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 If it's any consolation, I went to Kew on Thursday with little hope of finding my two relatives, but both were there! Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 15 April , 2005 Share Posted 15 April , 2005 Thanks Andy: but there is only one Samuel James Woodall born that year... in that area: it isn't such a far fetched assumption to say that it HAS to be him, is it? Of course, I'm hoping Kew will answer a few questions, assuming his record survived but I can't rely on that by any means, I haven't found a single one for my family, as yet. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Denise All it will prove is that a Samuel James was born to your ancestors, it doesn't prove that he is your "Uncle Jim". I find it strange that despite, what you call "family hero worship" of James that no one has actually mentioned that his real name was Samuel. As I said before I cannot see how you are going to prove this out one way or the other. Unfortunately assuming and hoping is not proof, but if you are happy with the assumption, well thats fine. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now